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I said nothing about any faith or belief I was speaking strictly about atheist any one who has searched out spirituality attempted to get to the truth. Others don't even try just live in the construct don't look left don't look right go to work make money and then go buy your happiness ...
I appreciate that you are acknowledging that some atheists have "searched out spiritually". Certainly that is me. I was a Christian for 30 years before I was an atheist.
As to blinkered consumerism and similar, that is something that has been remarked on outside of Christianity, e.g., Thoreau's comment that "most men lead lives of quiet desperation". I think there's much truth to it, but ironically, it is a certain kind of Christian who actually embraces looking neither to the right nor the left, bearing down on dogma in the same way that some people bear down on acquiring luxury goods or pleasurable experiences. What they all have in common is that they aren't seeking truth, they are accepting asserted truth coming from some other source, whether the church, Madison Avenue, or whatever. The thought seems to be, "just tell me what to do".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul888
People don't understand what they are searching for and that is the eternal. We chase the good moments trying to relive them but they fade in to time very quickly we can't find it so we chase it in drug addiction sex, money,and anything else that is similar but you can never hang on to that moment so you continuously try to recreate it having the same thing happen again and again We can't even live in the moment its gone before you even think about it.
Buddhism also has much to say on this very topic, and personally I like (minus the religious cruft) the prescriptions of that system of thought better. After all, it is not, as you seem to make it out to be, all about addictions (money, sex, drugs, status). Ultimately those are just self-medicating for the actual problem, which is more along the lines of depression and anxiety in its many forms, often due to searching for meaning and purpose in the wrong places and/or for the wrong reasons.
I am surrounded by meaning and purpose, and have zero concern that my life is passing to no good purpose. That is more than a lot of people in or out of Christianity can honestly say. Some of this is just a function of me getting over myself and humbly accepting my true (and imperfect) role in things rather than seeking some elevated, transcendent, "change the world" role that is doomed to failure. I am happy that in the last 24 hours I visited a volunteer fair with my wife to consider ways we can contribute to the community in our retirement, that I built out and mostly tested an important feature for the software I'm working on for my client, made some progress on exercises I need to do to address some back pain issues, gave some support, validation and counsel to my daughter for an upsetting problem with one of her children's teachers, and even just got a good night's sleep last night. It is sufficient, and there is nothing ephemeral in life but what you insist on clinging to it. I have attained peace of mind that I could not obtain in Christian fundamentalism because I was constantly having to deal with the cognitive dissonance of unanswered prayer and unfulfilled promises. I now expect none of those things and guess what -- they no longer trouble me! To the extent that I have challenges, they are not personal or directed, they are not "tests" or punishments. They are just normal things happening. I like some and dislike others, but none of it is subject to the caprice of some deity.
I appreciate that you are acknowledging that some atheists have "searched out spiritually". Certainly that is me. I was a Christian for 30 years before I was an atheist.
As to blinkered consumerism and similar, that is something that has been remarked on outside of Christianity, e.g., Thoreau's comment that "most men lead lives of quiet desperation". I think there's much truth to it, but ironically, it is a certain kind of Christian who actually embraces looking neither to the right nor the left, bearing down on dogma in the same way that some people bear down on acquiring luxury goods or pleasurable experiences. What they all have in common is that they aren't seeking truth, they are accepting asserted truth coming from some other source, whether the church, Madison Avenue, or whatever. The thought seems to be, "just tell me what to do".
Buddhism also has much to say on this very topic, and personally I like (minus the religious cruft) the prescriptions of that system of thought better. After all, it is not, as you seem to make it out to be, all about addictions (money, sex, drugs, status). Ultimately those are just self-medicating for the actual problem, which is more along the lines of depression and anxiety in its many forms, often due to searching for meaning and purpose in the wrong places and/or for the wrong reasons.
I am surrounded by meaning and purpose, and have zero concern that my life is passing to no good purpose. That is more than a lot of people in or out of Christianity can honestly say. Some of this is just a function of me getting over myself and humbly accepting my true (and imperfect) role in things rather than seeking some elevated, transcendent, "change the world" role that is doomed to failure. I am happy that in the last 24 hours I visited a volunteer fair with my wife to consider ways we can contribute to the community in our retirement, that I built out and mostly tested an important feature for the software I'm working on for my client, made some progress on exercises I need to do to address some back pain issues, gave some support, validation and counsel to my daughter for an upsetting problem with one of her children's teachers, and even just got a good night's sleep last night. It is sufficient, and there is nothing ephemeral in life but what you insist on clinging to it. I have attained peace of mind that I could not obtain in Christian fundamentalism because I was constantly having to deal with the cognitive dissonance of unanswered prayer and unfulfilled promises. I now expect none of those things and guess what -- they no longer trouble me! To the extent that I have challenges, they are not personal or directed, they are not "tests" or punishments. They are just normal things happening. I like some and dislike others, but none of it is subject to the caprice of some deity.
A lot of christians do not understand that the primary focus in Buddhism can be summarized in 2 words: reduce suffering. It is not the kind of all-encompassing religion that christianity attempts (and fails) to be.
Some cannot see deeper than the meat they think all they are is intelligent meat.I think that takes a lot of faith to believe that.
The meat exists, and it is intelligent. That is not faith, that is the evidence we actually have. So we have met the burden of proof. If you want to claim there is something else, you need to provide evidence for that extra. If you do not have any, then it is you who has faith.
And that is your problem, you do not have that extra evidence. You may think you do, such as the Turin shroud, but on closer inspection it turns out to be bad evidence, usually pushed by dishonest people trying to sell something.
We know natural forces can create complexity, and you need to provide stronger evidence for your claims. Otherwise we have no reason to believe claims such as Saint Peter resurrecting a cooked fish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul888
Many of us know we are not just meat.
How do you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul888
If you want to believe all you are is a hunk of intelligent meat then so be it.Most have never even attempted to investigate they jump right to shame and ridicule the unscientific way of investigating.
Many of us were raised in a religion, and some of us have looked at other religions. But the problem is that there are many religions, and they can not all be true, and therefore most must be false. This also means people invent religions and religious claims. And if most religions and religious claims are invented, why not all of them?
And some of us have researched religious claims. From the Turin shroud, the claims of creationists and the historicity of the early Christian church. All bogus. And we have looked at the arguments theists put forward. They either all fail, or are equally as valid for naturalism.
Have you done that research?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul888
If you have never actually investigated you should say nothing because you know nothing.
Have you studied to see if intelligent meat is even possible? Neuroscience, neural networks (intelligence without meat but based on the same principles our brains use)? If not, then I presume you will no longer be posting.
I said nothing about any faith or belief I was speaking strictly about atheist any one who has searched out spirituality attempted to get to the truth. Others don't even try just live in the construct don't look left don't look right go to work make money and then go buy your happiness with a material item at the store and when that wears off do it all over again.Ads pounded at you all day long political BS from every angle .Who is living blindly.
People don't understand what they are searching for and that is the eternal. We chase the good moments trying to relive them but they fade in to time very quickly we can't find it so we chase it in drug addiction sex, money,and anything else that is similar but you can never hang on to that moment so you continuously try to recreate it having the same thing happen again and again We can't even live in the moment its gone before you even think about it.
You sound like a Buddhist. Your 2nd paragraph is straight from Buddhism. All composite phenomena are transient. Nothing transient can last. Human is seeking transient phenomena, being a transient phenomenon itself. From that, arises suffering. Suffering is caused by attraction to transient phenomena.
The meat exists, and it is intelligent. That is not faith, that is the evidence we actually have. So we have met the burden of proof. If you want to claim there is something else, you need to provide evidence for that extra. If you do not have any, then it is you who has faith.
And that is your problem, you do not have that extra evidence. You may think you do, such as the Turin shroud, but on closer inspection it turns out to be bad evidence, usually pushed by dishonest people trying to sell something.
We know natural forces can create complexity, and you need to provide stronger evidence for your claims. Otherwise we have no reason to believe claims such as Saint Peter resurrecting a cooked fish.
How do you know?
Many of us were raised in a religion, and some of us have looked at other religions. But the problem is that there are many religions, and they can not all be true, and therefore most must be false. This also means people invent religions and religious claims. And if most religions and religious claims are invented, why not all of them?
And some of us have researched religious claims. From the Turin shroud, the claims of creationists and the historicity of the early Christian church. All bogus. And we have looked at the arguments theists put forward. They either all fail, or are equally as valid for naturalism.
Have you done that research?
Have you studied to see if intelligent meat is even possible? Neuroscience, neural networks (intelligence without meat but based on the same principles our brains use)? If not, then I presume you will no longer be posting.
::Sigh:: You take for granted that the "non-meat" (You) that the meat produces makes the meat intelligent. It does NOT! Only what the meat produces is intelligent. The ability to mimic the processes causes you to assume all that exists are the processes the meat uses to produce the "non-meat" (You). You cannot see the Real You from the outside because you identify internally with the meat.
::Sigh:: You take for granted that the "non-meat" (You) that the meat produces makes the meat intelligent. It does NOT! Only what the meat produces is intelligent. The ability to mimic the processes causes you to assume all that exists are the processes the meat uses to produce the "non-meat" (You). You cannot see the Real You from the outside because you identify internally with the meat.
To be honest, I was quite shocked, when I saw this definition of intelligence: the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. Somehow, that does not sound right, sounds really watered, dumbed down. Most animals can do that, unless I'm missing some deep wisdom, human only pertinent, in that definition.
I like Russian version better: Derived from the Latin verb intelligo, which has the following meanings: “to feel, perceive, , notice; to know; think; to know a lot, to differentiate"[4][5].
Directly Latin word intelligentia includes a number of psychological concepts: “understanding, reason, cognitive power, ability of perception; concept, idea, recognition; perception, sensory cognition; skill, art"[6].
Thomas Aquinas uses the word "intelligentsia" (intelligence) in Summa Theologica (Part 1., v. 79, p. 10), however, he understands by this term “a cognitive act of the mind.”
exactly.
also it is backwards to say that something inert and inanimate, generates that which is animate.
i am going to use cookie for the inert instead of meat.
an inert cookie does not generate intelligence.
it is the other way around. the intelligence of that which is animate, creates and generates that which is inanimate.
not the other way around.
an animate chef, creates and generates inanimate inert cookies.
inert cookies do not generate animate chefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
::Sigh:: You take for granted that the "non-meat" (You) that the meat produces makes the meat intelligent. It does NOT! Only what the meat produces is intelligent. The ability to mimic the processes causes you to assume all that exists are the processes the meat uses to produce the "non-meat" (You). You cannot see the Real You from the outside because you identify internally with the meat.
inert physical object (brain, meat, cookie)
does not generate intelligence, nor does it animate anything, nor does it create anything. it is an inert lump that responds and reacts to intelligence which acts upon it or uses it or manipulates it.
that which is animate, acts upon that which is inanimate.
it is backwards to claim the inanimate acts upon the animate.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-28-2024 at 04:33 PM..
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