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1. I do not really support the samsara idea but, it is commonly useful to speak of for the matters of re existences.
2. why there is samsara is a lesser question. Bigger question is, why an immortal Self ended in the wheel of samsara? Apparently, it has done something, that brought it onto that path. Simple logic.
3. Hence, purpose of the cycle of re-existences is for the Conscious Self to return back to where it "dropped off" from. Aka Eden, Heaven, Oneness, etc, etc, you know all kinds of concepts.
4. There is a great essay on such matter. https://www.drcherie.com/ten-rules-for-being-human/
"1. You will receive a body.
You may love it or hate it, but this one body will be yours for the duration of your lifetime on earth.
2. You will be presented with lessons.
You are enrolled in a full-time informal school called “life.” Each day in this school you will have the opportunity to learn lessons. You may like the lessons or hate them, but you have designed them as part of your curriculum."
And so on....
5. that brings to question, what exactly caused the Conscious Self to drop off and it correlates with the bolded above. Noticed, how she says YOU have designed them? Conscious Self created a situation, when it had to go through the school of physical existences, to correct that situation. This was not imposed onto the Self by some forces. It simply made its own decisions, choices, resulting in the "curriculum". While on Earth, Self either adds to the curriculum(samsara) or, chips off it, reducing it until it vanishes and Self is done. Samsara is also known as Destiny, Kismet, Fate, Fatum, Preordination, will of god, etc.
6. How exactly Self caused such ordeal onto itself? What precedes any action? THOUGHT. Simple as that. FACT. Thinking thoughts that "lowered" Self's "spiritual status", draw it to the physical, Self "dropped off" into the physical plane of the physical world and, particularly, into the physical existences.
7. Here's another way to look at samsara/Destiny. Based on thinking. Purpose of the Conscious Self physical existence on Earth, aka samsara, aka Destiny, is to stop creating thoughts, binding it to the physical, in all its attributes.
This is also known as "clear your mind", "rid of ego", "become still" and so on, many teachings have many names for it. You know all about that, Mystic.
There is nothing wrong or right with samsara/destiny. It is result of One's choice. No gods, no devils, no spirits, only very basic self-choice. Total free will.
Be well
Namaste
yes.
have you ever been having a dream, and realized you were dreaming, and decided this is a really stupid dumb dream and I don't need to keep being in this dream, and then woken up?
it's like that, Mystic. and the dream is of your own design.
have you ever stood at the edge of a cliff, or on the balcony of a really tall building, and imagined falling or jumping to your death from it? and then immediately discarded or dismissed the idea as a really bad idea.
it's like that, Mystic. and the imagined scenario is of your own design.
imagine something and it becomes real, even if it is just a "dream" that you wake up from, even if it is just a "thought" that you imagine for an instant and then discard. but it plays out. The characters in the dream run around doing their dumb stupid nonsensical things until you say this is a dumb dream and wake up. The character in the imagined scenario tumbles down the rocky cliff or splats on the pavement below. and you say bad idea and decide not to do that.
the whole of physical reality is like that. a brief thought that was immediately discarded as a bad idea, however it is playing itself out like the dream that it is, until the dreamer wakes up and the dream ends, until the dreamer reaches the point and says this is a really dumb dream it's time to wake up. and all of physical reality is like that Mystic, and all of physical reality is of your own design. all of it. your daily life and everything in it and the physical universe.
which brings us to Enlightenment. the desire to wake up and get out of the dream is the desire for Enlightenment. And then actually waking up and stepping out of the dream, or stepping off the cycle of samsara, is when it happens.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-07-2024 at 06:11 PM..
have you ever been having a dream, and realized you were dreaming, and decided this is a really stupid dumb dream and I don't need to keep being in this dream, and then woken up?
it's like that, Mystic.
I forgot, who said that but, it was said that, a human being, in order to progress, first, has to hit the bottoms of hell, to realize, that enough is enough. Only then, he can COMPLETELY dedicate himself to The Great Way of Progression .
Again, The Groundhog Day is a great visual on the stages of such process. You just need to look at it from esoteric perspective.
one of my teachers described it this way. it is a great analogy.
when chess was invented---the rules how to play, the pieces how they move, how big is the board, how many pieces, what are they called, what is a win---instantaneously with the rules being invented, also all possible chess games came into existence at the very same time. Even if all those games had not yet been played, still they were defined and brought into existence by the mere setting up of the rules for the game of chess.
so whenever a person plays a game of chess, it is not something new. it is the repetition of a specific game that already exists. there is nothing new in it. now matter how much a person loves chess, no matter how challenging it is for the person, no matter how good they are at it, or how highly ranked they are, or what titles and awards they win or records they achieve, it is just going through the motions of something that is not new. it is the repetition of a game that already exists.
physical reality is like that and physical incarnation is like that. as soon as divinity thought or wondered "what would it be like to descend into physical matter and totally forget where i came from and just identify as a physical entity and nothing more what would that be like?" well, in the wondering of that imagined scenario, in the instant it was imagined, just like when chess was invented, all the scenarios and potentials and rules for physical life and a physical world also came into being. All possible lifetimes, with all possible outcomes, and all possible variables sprang into being.
at some point a person says ok chess is interesting. but now i want to do something else. because it's repetitive. there is nothing new here. so too with physical incarnation. at some point a person says ok physical world and physical reincarnation is interesting. but now i want to do something else. because it's repetitive. there is nothing new here.
so much of what "motivates" people in life, whether it is in the arts or sports or technology, is to "make something new" or "discover something new" or "set a new record." and that carries over into motivation for reincarnation also: continue to play music, continue to make art, continue to explore the same profession. at some point it reaches a point where a person wonders what's the point.
when a person realizes they are scripting it all, everything in their life including physicality itself, then they can either become further distracted by physicality, and become more deeply enmeshed and entangled in it ("well if i'm creating it then i'll become absorbed in creating a better life for myself this life or next life or the next or the next i'll become a master at that then")....or they can see the eventual folly in that and discard altogether physicality in its entirety.
but it requires letting go of not just the attachment to all that physicality includes, but it also includes letting go of the belief that physicality itself is even real. and recognizing it as a dream without substance that a person is ready to wake up from.
easier said than done. but at some point that is the only thing that matters. like that story about the guy who went to see the Zen master on the mountain and said he wanted enlightenment and the master asked him how badly do you want it and he said he really really wanted it, more than anything, and the Zen master, pushed the guy's head into a bucket of water and held it there for a while, the guy is frantic and waving his arms around and panicking. Finally the master lifts the guy's head out of the water and the guy is gasping and coughing and heaving and all he wanted to do was just draw a breath, and the master says that's how badly you have to want it.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-07-2024 at 10:18 PM..
1. I do not really support the samsara idea but, it is commonly useful to speak of for the matters of re existences.
2. why there is samsara is a lesser question. Bigger question is, why an immortal Self ended in the wheel of samsara? Apparently, it has done something, that brought it onto that path. Simple logic.
3. Hence, purpose of the cycle of re-existences is for the Conscious Self to return back to where it "dropped off" from. Aka Eden, Heaven, Oneness, etc, etc, you know all kinds of concepts.
4. There is a great essay on such matter. https://www.drcherie.com/ten-rules-for-being-human/
"1. You will receive a body.
You may love it or hate it, but this one body will be yours for the duration of your lifetime on earth.
2. You will be presented with lessons.
You are enrolled in a full-time informal school called “life.” Each day in this school you will have the opportunity to learn lessons. You may like the lessons or hate them, but you have designed them as part of your curriculum."
And so on....
5. that brings to question, what exactly caused the Conscious Self to drop off and it correlates with the bolded above. Noticed, how she says YOU have designed them? Conscious Self created a situation, when it had to go through the school of physical existences, to correct that situation. This was not imposed onto the Self by some forces. It simply made its own decisions, choices, resulting in the "curriculum". While on Earth, Self either adds to the curriculum(samsara) or, chips off it, reducing it until it vanishes and Self is done. Samsara is also known as Destiny, Kismet, Fate, Fatum, Preordination, will of god, etc.
6. How exactly Self caused such ordeal onto itself? What precedes any action? THOUGHT. Simple as that. FACT. Thinking thoughts that "lowered" Self's "spiritual status", draw it to the physical, Self "dropped off" into the physical plane of the physical world and, particularly, into the physical existences.
7. Here's another way to look at samsara/Destiny. Based on thinking. Purpose of the Conscious Self physical existence on Earth, aka samsara, aka Destiny, is to stop creating thoughts, binding it to the physical, in all its attributes.
This is also known as "clear your mind", "rid of ego", "become still" and so on, many teachings have many names for it. You know all about that, Mystic.
There is nothing wrong or right with samsara/destiny. It is result of One's choice. No gods, no devils, no spirits, only very basic self-choice. Total free will.
Be well
Namaste
Thank you for trying, but it makes no sense to me. What you and Tzaph describe is truly pointless suggesting that existence is pointless. My encounter and experience belie that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
so much of what "motivates" people in life, whether it is in the arts or sports or technology, is to "make something new" or "discover something new" or "set a new record." and that carries over into motivation for reincarnation also: continue to play music, continue to make art, continue to explore the same profession. at some point it reaches a point where a person wonders what's the point.
when a person realizes they are scripting it all, everything in their life including physicality itself, then they can either become further distracted by physicality, and become more deeply enmeshed and entangled in it ("well if i'm creating it then i'll become absorbed in creating a better life for myself this life or next life or the next or the next i'll become a master at that then")....or they can see the eventual folly in that and discard altogether physicality in its entirety.
but it requires letting go of not just the attachment to all that physicality includes, but it also includes letting go of the belief that physicality itself is even real. and recognizing it as a dream without substance that a person is ready to wake up from.
easier said than done. but at some point that is the only thing that matters. like that story about the guy who went to see the Zen master on the mountain and said he wanted enlightenment and the master asked him how much do you want it and he said he really really wanted it, more than anything, and the Zen master, pushed the guy's head into a bucket of water and held it there for a while, the guy is frantic and waving his arms around and panicking. Finally the master lifts the guy's head out of the water and the guy is gasping and coughing, and the master says that's how badly you have to want it.
This only confirms my view that there is no sense whatsoever to your view. It takes nihilism to new heights, IMO
Thank you for trying, but it makes no sense to me. What you and Tzaph describe is truly pointless suggesting that existence is pointless. My encounter and experience belie that!
This only confirms my view that there is no sense whatsoever to your view. It takes nihilism to new heights, IMO
it is not nihilism. since you don't know the difference between nihilism and stepping off the cycle of samsara, and are unable to distinguish between them, then that would be a good place to start in your purported quest for understanding.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-07-2024 at 10:53 PM..
Appreciate the effort, you put into several posts. Not sure, what "straw man" means, must be something derogatory, but I don't understand the allegory, so I'll pass? Maybe, Wizard of Oz one? He was a smart guy though..
It means inventing an argument you can attack instead of addressing the real one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Anyhow.
I hope, you do realize that what you suggested as an AI produced beauty, wisdom, passion, etc (see my post) is none of those things? As if not, I feel sorry.
I put in bold what I was referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Anyhow. Again, appreciate the effort. We are so much on different, not crossing orbits, that there is no point to exchange opinions, as they are based in completely different world views. And I despise wasting effort on useless discussions.
As wise man said, some concepts are not understood not because of the lack of understanding but, because they are beyond one's circle of understandings.
Be well. If it will make you feel better, feel free to believe that you showed me. Like, really showed me.
Namaste
Yes, if you are unable to understand the relevant science, it would be pointless suggesting you visit the science forum.
the operative word in "artificial intelligence" is artificial.
No, the operative word if you were to think about it is intelligence, as that is what they are created for. The word artificial simply infers the possibility of consciousness in complex non-living devices. You simply do not like the idea as it makes the position of souls and cosmic consciousness very, very weak.
The downside of this religious aversion to evidence you do not like would be to deny a conscious machine it's rights, including it's religious rights.
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