Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (cross, secret, genesis)
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Thank you for illustrating your total lack of understanding.
While the environment may have been hostile to you personally, and to all humans, it wasn't hostile to those cells.
You've also proven beyond any reasonable doubt that you haven't read any science in the last 40 years, because if you had, you wouldn't be making such asinine statements. There are many, many organisms that live on Earth in the most extreme hostile environments, but those environments are only hostile to you, not them. Those organisms are perfectly at home in those environments.
nipped for space
"Step A" and "Step B" aren't even part of the equation, but you have to crow-bar them into the equation to make it fit your belief system, which is also very x-tian of you.
everything you posted here shows it was fast. What it shows is that you have earth bound view and think that human time scales are the reference frame. A very limited view.
We might be second or third gen star. Life happen real fast. It took the first generation stars just to produce the elements. it took some 3 billion years to produce the oxygen needed for multi cellar life. As soon as the O2 was available life went "boom". It went from a rat size animal to a human in 65 million years. From a ape thing to pre-human then human in a several/couple of million years.
How many times do you say "by chance" when it becomes apparent that "by chance" just is not explaining it property? Unless you are using the word "random" like they do when they a cell insides are working in a random fashion. Then it fits exactly.
either way ... it was fast.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 05-08-2020 at 05:25 PM..
I have been thinking about your post for days, thrillobyte, and I'm genuinely curious: If you do believe in some sort of a Higher Intelligence, you must have some concept of what this entity is really like. I mean, if He's not evil, is He good (perhaps in a way we can't understand)? What do you believe about Him and how have you come to your conclusions?
It's quite a long response, Katzpur. I'll try to keep it brief.
I do believe in some kind of Higher Intelligence somewhere out there, call it God, call it HI--Concept: I think it is extremely powerful--after all it created the universe and encoded billions of different genomes with enough information to fill the Milky Way galaxy. This entity programmed everything to run on natural laws which the universe has been operating on since its creation. This HI set up circumstances for all life on earth to evolve over billions of years against super-impossible odds so let's eliminate right off the bat we are here by accident. Does this HI care about us? Judging by its track record answering prayers for help and by the staggering level of evil it permits in the world, it doesn't care about us in the least. Let me ask you a question at this point, Katz: if you saw a man standing by while his child was being tortured, raped and then strangled would you say this father cares about the child's welfare or no, he doesn't? If you say, "No, he doesn't" then we have to ask if the father is guilty of the crime. Now check out what the laws says:
You would only have a duty to help if you created the peril, you started trying to rescue or help, or you have a special relationship, such as parent-child, with the person in need.May 20, 2015
So you can see, Katzpur that just by ignoring a person who is a victim, if you have a relationship with the child, let's say a child being tortured and murdered, you could be convicted of crime. Why? Because we are sickened by the thought of such insensitivity. Now multiply that by hundreds of millions of children suffering the worst kinds of abuse and God, who has the power to stop it, not lifting a finger to stop it. Think of an innocent 5 YO child--I want you to actually picture this in your mind--having red-hot pokers put on his skin while s/he's trussed up like a pig. Does it disgust you? Would you help that child if you could? Of course you would, at danger to your own life. But you don't have the ability to. Now imagine a God who HAS the ability and is right there as the child prays to Him for rescue and God does absolutely nothing. I don't know about you but I am sicked beyond words because of the sheer hypocrisy of the whole thing: Christians teaching children "Jesus loves us, this we know..." and yet when the rubber hits the road Jesus is nowhere to be found. If anything destroyed my faith in Jesus it was this single issue: A God who has not a drop of compassion for us.
We can't hide behind the ridiculous excuse of violation of free will. Would the police use that, "Well, he was exercising his free will to watch."
But if you answered my question, "Yes He does care" then you are confronted with the same problem: where is the proof He cares?
So is God evil? Because of what I just described I believe He is. He doesn't have to commit crime of commission to be evil. All He has to do is do what He has always done: commit the crime of omission. In other words--NOTHING.
It's quite a long response, Katzpur. I'll try to keep it brief.
nipped for space
So is God evil? Because of what I just described I believe He is. He doesn't have to commit crime of commission to be evil. All He has to do is do what He has always done: commit the crime of omission. In other words--NOTHING.
I am really puzzled by the evil god part.
can he care and not do anything about it? Like I care about bugs, I love bugs, ants are my absolute favorite. They are like walking brain cells. But I know I will step on a few when I walk around.
Or, when I drive to the shore my car is covered in in bugs. When the big ones hit I even feel bad ... for a sec.
I respect your reasoning abilities about this topic. There are numerous “miracles” that would all have to occur for life to be possible, let alone intelligent conscious life, that a hand-waving dismissal of any mind and intelligence behind it is UNreasonable.
Chemistry requires miracles?
No one is hand waving, so your well poisoning is once again dishonest.
But eh, if you are dismissing miracles, you have just flushed your god. Again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
James Tour has credentials far beyond any of us on this forum and this is what he has to say about the origin of life. Especially interesting are his comments about time working against the process.
Time working against the process? That alone is enough to NOT watch your video.
Your Discovery Institute video is refuted by 1) being a Discovery Institute video, and 2) those 50 papers I linked to. Have you finished researching them all in your 'honest, open minded' search for truth?
I respect your reasoning abilities about this topic. There are numerous “miracles” that would all have to occur for life to be possible, let alone intelligent conscious life, that a hand-waving dismissal of any mind and intelligence behind it is UNreasonable. James Tour has credentials far beyond any of us on this forum and this is what he has to say about the origin of life. Especially interesting are his comments about time working against the process.
if your claim can be liked back to the standard model it is more valid than if it can't.
if your claim holds up under more conditions than other claims, it tends to be more valid.
Yes, things like medical miracles happen everyday. so we have claims as to why.
1) deity
2) alive (can be loosely considered a pantheist or panetheist claim)
3) natural
4) no god, evil god, all god claims are stupid.
I think rational people can sort through this pretty darn quickly. The straw man here is stating we are not here to compare all claims, we are hear (I left it) only to promote atheism and stop theism.
I respect your reasoning abilities about this topic. There are numerous “miracles” that would all have to occur for life to be possible, let alone intelligent conscious life, that a hand-waving dismissal of any mind and intelligence behind it is UNreasonable. James Tour has credentials far beyond any of us on this forum and this is what he has to say about the origin of life. Especially interesting are his comments about time working against the process.
This has been debunked before. As I recall, he is approaching it from a biochemical engineering point of view and he is evidently subscribing to the 'whirlwind in a junkyard' argument, which is fallacious because time in fact works in favour of natural design - both in chemical evolution and biochemical.
What works, survives; what doesn't goes extinct. And the survival arms -race leads to more and more complexity. "Natural" accounts perfectly for this, and if James Tour understood evolution as well as he does chemicals, he'd know this.
Thus your appeal to a string of divine interventions to make evolution work is simply I/C. And I/C has been ruled invalid as a credible scientific theory, both by science, and in the law courts, where Irreducible Complexity (which is what you are arguing) was deemed not science and in fact Creationism.
I hear you about being tired, having tried to explain my views soooooo man y times, only to generate a thousand "What in the....are you jabbering about?????" to one, "Oh, I see."
Anyway, the reason I don't give nature the credence to accomplish what we see on earth is a plethora of explanations (sigh) I'll try once more:
1. A single primitive cell would have to have undergone millions of years of attempts to get to where it is while occupying an environment SO hostile it likely would have been destroyed going out the gate. Reboot the whole process over another couple million years to get to a 2nd cell facing the same hostile environment. Rinse, repeat.
It would require just one of trillions of primitive cells (increasing the probability landscape) to survive in an environment that is not hostile on a one of the many trillion planets surrounding one of the many trillion stars.
Glückwunsch, Earth is it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
2. Assume a hundred billion cells were able to beat the odds (mathematically impossible, actually) and organize. Then we might get a sea slug or similar. Now it has taken a billion years to beat the odds of dying, organize, specialize and generate life. But that's all we've got--a sea slug. Now we have to get from a sea slug to 5 BILLION varied species
It took trillions of cells 2 billion years to organize simple, multiple cell life. If a divine intelligence created life, do you think it would use undirected evolution of simple cells to get to us?
That seems unlikely to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species, that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct. Estimates on the number of Earth's current species range from 10 million to 14 million, of which about 1.2 million have been documented and over 86 percent have not yet been described.
Let's just say that getting from A (a primordial ocean of 118 elements) to B (elements combining to form a primitive amino acid) to Z (current life on earth i.e. botanical, entomological, animal, etc.) requires a set of favorable circumstances so odds-defying that I don't think the number could be written out, I don't care how many billions of years you give it to try.
That is the beauty of probability, even if life was improbable, if the landscape of possibilities is large enough, even the improbable becomes probable.
It's quite a long response, Katzpur. I'll try to keep it brief.
I do believe in some kind of Higher Intelligence somewhere out there, call it God, call it HI--Concept: I think it is extremely powerful--after all it created the universe and encoded billions of different genomes with enough information to fill the Milky Way galaxy. This entity programmed everything to run on natural laws which the universe has been operating on since its creation. This HI set up circumstances for all life on earth to evolve over billions of years against super-impossible odds so let's eliminate right off the bat we are here by accident. Does this HI care about us? Judging by its track record answering prayers for help and by the staggering level of evil it permits in the world, it doesn't care about us in the least. Let me ask you a question at this point, Katz: if you saw a man standing by while his child was being tortured, raped and then strangled would you say this father cares about the child's welfare or no, he doesn't? If you say, "No, he doesn't" then we have to ask if the father is guilty of the crime. Now check out what the laws says:
You would only have a duty to help if you created the peril, you started trying to rescue or help, or you have a special relationship, such as parent-child, with the person in need.May 20, 2015
So you can see, Katzpur that just by ignoring a person who is a victim, if you have a relationship with the child, let's say a child being tortured and murdered, you could be convicted of crime. Why? Because we are sickened by the thought of such insensitivity. Now multiply that by hundreds of millions of children suffering the worst kinds of abuse and God, who has the power to stop it, not lifting a finger to stop it. Think of an innocent 5 YO child--I want you to actually picture this in your mind--having red-hot pokers put on his skin while s/he's trussed up like a pig. Does it disgust you? Would you help that child if you could? Of course you would, at danger to your own life. But you don't have the ability to. Now imagine a God who HAS the ability and is right there as the child prays to Him for rescue and God does absolutely nothing. I don't know about you but I am sicked beyond words because of the sheer hypocrisy of the whole thing: Christians teaching children "Jesus loves us, this we know..." and yet when the rubber hits the road Jesus is nowhere to be found. If anything destroyed my faith in Jesus it was this single issue: A God who has not a drop of compassion for us.
We can't hide behind the ridiculous excuse of violation of free will. Would the police use that, "Well, he was exercising his free will to watch."
But if you answered my question, "Yes He does care" then you are confronted with the same problem: where is the proof He cares?
So is God evil? Because of what I just described I believe He is. He doesn't have to commit crime of commission to be evil. All He has to do is do what He has always done: commit the crime of omission. In other words--NOTHING.
Thank you so much for your response, thrillobyte. You have raised some really legitimate questions, and it's easy for me to understand why you've come to the conclusions you have. I appreciate your taking the time to explain your position.
It's quite a long response, Katzpur. I'll try to keep it brief.
I do believe in some kind of Higher Intelligence somewhere out there, call it God, call it HI--Concept: I think it is extremely powerful--after all it created the universe and encoded billions of different genomes with enough information to fill the Milky Way galaxy. This entity programmed everything to run on natural laws which the universe has been operating on since its creation. This HI set up circumstances for all life on earth to evolve over billions of years against super-impossible odds so let's eliminate right off the bat we are here by accident. Does this HI care about us? Judging by its track record answering prayers for help and by the staggering level of evil it permits in the world, it doesn't care about us in the least. Let me ask you a question at this point, Katz: if you saw a man standing by while his child was being tortured, raped and then strangled would you say this father cares about the child's welfare or no, he doesn't? If you say, "No, he doesn't" then we have to ask if the father is guilty of the crime. Now check out what the laws says:
You would only have a duty to help if you created the peril, you started trying to rescue or help, or you have a special relationship, such as parent-child, with the person in need.May 20, 2015
So you can see, Katzpur that just by ignoring a person who is a victim, if you have a relationship with the child, let's say a child being tortured and murdered, you could be convicted of crime. Why? Because we are sickened by the thought of such insensitivity. Now multiply that by hundreds of millions of children suffering the worst kinds of abuse and God, who has the power to stop it, not lifting a finger to stop it. Think of an innocent 5 YO child--I want you to actually picture this in your mind--having red-hot pokers put on his skin while s/he's trussed up like a pig. Does it disgust you? Would you help that child if you could? Of course you would, at danger to your own life. But you don't have the ability to. Now imagine a God who HAS the ability and is right there as the child prays to Him for rescue and God does absolutely nothing. I don't know about you but I am sicked beyond words because of the sheer hypocrisy of the whole thing: Christians teaching children "Jesus loves us, this we know..." and yet when the rubber hits the road Jesus is nowhere to be found. If anything destroyed my faith in Jesus it was this single issue: A God who has not a drop of compassion for us.
We can't hide behind the ridiculous excuse of violation of free will. Would the police use that, "Well, he was exercising his free will to watch."
But if you answered my question, "Yes He does care" then you are confronted with the same problem: where is the proof He cares?
So is God evil? Because of what I just described I believe He is. He doesn't have to commit crime of commission to be evil. All He has to do is do what He has always done: commit the crime of omission. In other words--NOTHING.
As you know, Thrillo, I think very highly of you, and I do not claim to know that there is no kind of Cosmic mind, even if I do not believe in one.
There are even some arguments to make for some kind of Order, bordering on organised control in the Cosmos. As Jonesey has been posting about for a while, with even Dawkins seeming to make some moves towards crediting this 'God of Einstein'.
But I do not think that the old "Classic" arguments from Design, Complexity or 'Information' make a case. I can respect your belief (or at least crediting the probability) of a cosmic mind, with some arguments, but not those old ID standbys.
No one is hand waving, so your well poisoning is once again dishonest.
But eh, if you are dismissing miracles, you have just flushed your god. Again.
Time working against the process? That alone is enough to NOT watch your video.
Your Discovery Institute video is refuted by 1) being a Discovery Institute video, and 2) those 50 papers I linked to. Have you finished researching them all in your 'honest, open minded' search for truth?
You claim no one is hand-waving, then you go on to do just that...
“Time working against the process? That alone is enough to NOT watch your video.
Your Discovery Institute video is refuted by 1) being a Discovery Institute video,...”
Your eagerness to dismiss information based the source of that information is not a trait of a logical thinker.
Your English is fine, your reasoning is infantile. I feel sorry for you. You’re a troubled individual who seems desperate to convince yourself that God doesn’t exist. You’ll learn the truth one day.
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