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How is it a 'noble' question? Jenny has earplugs in when it comes to who is really doing the attacking.
What do I, as someone on the 'left' want? Fairness, understanding and some little acknowledgement that a humane country does not let some large proportion of its citizens suffer needlessly when there are alternatives. I would also like some little recognition of the fact that some huge proportion of the population suffers from 'I got mine, now get lost' syndrome but scream the loudest when it looks like someone else is gonna get 'some.'
What do you consider 'dream programs' OP? Medicare, SCHip, free public education, voluntary military service?
24/7 police and fire protection? The 'best' healthcare system in the free world?
What would you have denied the populace of earlier generations? No workplace safety laws? Ever heard of the Triangle Fire? No food inspections? Any idea how many people died from trichinosis? No vaccinations? Know anyone who suffered with polio?
Which of these would you have voted against?
I don't believe that there is a 'perfect world', at least not here on this plane of existence, however, I believe that there can be a just world or at the very least one in which we handle ourselves with a little decorum and humility intead of constantly acting as if we are auditioning for a spot on 'Jerry Springer.'
Fairness, understanding and acknowledgement are pie in the sky. I think the OP was looking for specifics.
See, I think one of the problem is communication. Liberals are up in the clouds and conservatives are on the ground. We say we want lower taxes and you say you want peace and understanding. We say we want small government. You say you want fairness. I think the OP wants you to drop the pie in the sky language and define specifically what you want so we simpletons can put our finger on it. How much taxes is enough? Exactly what defines a clean environment as in the environment will be clean when.....? How much government is enough? What's freedom of speech and does it include restricting anyone who doesn't agree with you? What's fairness? Can I take your car and give it to your neighbor if he doesn't have one and you have two in your household? Or is it only fairness when you are giving someone else's stuff to someone? Spell it out.
Do you realize that the same problems liberals are having with the OPs question are the same problems the President is having. What exactly was that change President Obama promised during his campaign? Was it to change Washington, DC politics as usual? Was it to change America? Was it to pay that lady's mortgage that was in the crowd? And now he's still making speeches. He never did define which of those healthcare bills was the one he was promoting? Did he define what he meant by stimulus jobs? Are jobs that last 40 hours called job creation just like jobs that last 4 years are called job creation? Exactly what was the goal of "cash for clunkers"? Stimulate the economy by how much? Energy efficiency by what measurement? Show how efficiently and effectively the government can run a program by what standards? What's the goal for cap and trade? Anyone know?
I am just wondering what all of you Left Wingers really want? What is your perfect world? What is the final plan? AND just how much should taxes be to pay for all your "dream programs"? or how do you think it will all be paid for?
I sit and watch all the name calling and the bitterness and passion you people have for this cause. OK so lay the cards out...what is it that you want and who should pay for it. What will it take for all of you to just shut up, be happy and quit attacking?
Fairness, understanding and acknowledgement are pie in the sky. I think the OP was looking for specifics.
See, I think one of the problem is communication. Liberals are up in the clouds and conservatives are on the ground. We say we want lower taxes and you say you want peace and understanding. We say we want small government. You say you want fairness. I think the OP wants you to drop the pie in the sky language and define specifically what you want so we simpletons can put our finger on it. How much taxes is enough? Exactly what defines a clean environment as in the environment will be clean when.....? How much government is enough? What's freedom of speech and does it include restricting anyone who doesn't agree with you? What's fairness? Can I take your car and give it to your neighbor if he doesn't have one and you have two in your household? Or is it only fairness when you are giving someone else's stuff to someone? Spell it out.
Do you realize that the same problems liberals are having with the OPs question are the same problems the President is having. What exactly was that change President Obama promised during his campaign? Was it to change Washington, DC politics as usual? Was it to change America? Was it to pay that lady's mortgage that was in the crowd? And now he's still making speeches. He never did define which of those healthcare bills was the one he was promoting? Did he define what he meant by stimulus jobs? Are jobs that last 40 hours called job creation just like jobs that last 4 years are called job creation? Exactly what was the goal of "cash for clunkers"? Stimulate the economy by how much? Energy efficiency by what measurement? Show how efficiently and effectively the government can run a program by what standards? What's the goal for cap and trade? Anyone know?
That is a well thought out response and thought. I expect no liberals here will answer it. :-) I think if they had a attention spam longer then a goldfish they might have a shot of actually responding.
All you right wingers do, is snivel about taxes. Your opposition to most ideas comes from one basic thing, you might have to fork over some taxes. Talk about greed.
Well, we all have to pay taxes. In fact, my property taxes are almost due and though I can afford it, I'm going to take a hit...but the difference between myself and those on the right, is even though I'm paying taxes for services I don't even use, such as public schools, I'm happy to do it because I know it helps out many of my fellow citizens and it's for the greater good.
To put it in a nutshell, the left cares about their fellow Americans, the right cares about themselves..
They believe the majority of people are unable to function, or make decisions on their own, and are only capable of playing computer games, or enjoying their leisure time, and the federal government should take care of all their bothersome grownup responsibilities for them. They truly believe that all answers and all solutions come from total federal government control of our lives. Think Soviet Union with a higher standard of living.
Those people who are able to make decisions and function w/o government, are simply winners in life's lottery, and should be overtaxed to pay for the rest of the unfortunate masses.
You I think you got this whole statement right.
I couldnt have said it better myself. This is the left think tank.
Those poor unfortunate masses :-)
Educated members of the left simply want what is described in The Capital and The Republic. Of course they see themselves as the omniscient ones able to implement those anti-human policies and ideas regardless of their oppressive nature. As always, they mask their true beliefs and intentions from the drooling class in forms of incrementalism, "justice", "equality", and "fairness". In the end, they are all megalomaniac totalitarians hell bent on forcing the rest of us to live in their idea of the perfect world through godvernment force. "Justice", "equality", and "fairness" are simply evaluated by how well the drooling class conforms to their particular eutopia. Suprisingly, the liberal elite who are obviously well educated in these systems of human slavery or government religions, seem completely ignorant of the basic human desire to be free.
This is where I have never been completely confident that I understand the other side. I am not talking about their followers, but the real intellectual elite who foster the growth of any cooercive "collective" type system. Either they truly do not understand human nature or they truly hate mankind. I suspect that they hate their fellow man's silly yearning to be free to live in a way that does not conform to their wishes. I say this only because if they simply did not understand human nature they would not devise systems of implementation which masked the end result that they desire. Their unrelenting obedience to socialist type policy, in my opinion, is the best indication that they do indeed understand that humans don't want to participate in their wet dreams of grandiosity at the expense of their freedoms. They understand, like Marx, that free people will not choose a communist system necessitating the need for incrementalism or transformational "revolution" from freedom into servitude.
As to what the "left" really wants. Here I speak of the drooling class who simply go along with the omniscient class' plans for them. I don't really believe that they know what they want. For the most part, they seem to simply absorb the definitions of "justice", "equality", and "fairness" handed to them by their leaders. For example, they will go along with any wealth redistribution scheme put in front of their face because their leaders have convinced them that anyone with more than they have has somehow "stolen" it from them in some way. So they justify the theft of others as a form of retribution. But I do not believe that the drooling class really has any idea of the real intention of redistribution of wealth per se. They do not see, I believe, that the real goal is to place all people in servitude to Godvernmental control of the omniscient class. They do not believe that the "benevolent leaders" goal of "equality" really only means one thing. "Equality" to the omniscient class simply means that all people are equally powerless to resist their schemes. In the end, the followers, the "left", are simply willing victims to a plan that they cannot comprehend.
Educated members of the left simply want what is described in The Capital and The Republic. Of course they see themselves as the omniscient ones able to implement those anti-human policies and ideas regardless of their oppressive nature. As always, they mask their true beliefs and intentions from the drooling class in forms of incrementalism, "justice", "equality", and "fairness". In the end, they are all megalomaniac totalitarians hell bent on forcing the rest of us to live in their idea of the perfect world through godvernment force. "Justice", "equality", and "fairness" are simply evaluated by how well the drooling class conforms to their particular eutopia. Suprisingly, the liberal elite who are obviously well educated in these systems of human slavery or government religions, seem completely ignorant of the basic human desire to be free.
This is where I have never been completely confident that I understand the other side. I am not talking about their followers, but the real intellectual elite who foster the growth of any cooercive "collective" type system. Either they truly do not understand human nature or they truly hate mankind. I suspect that they hate their fellow man's silly yearning to be free to live in a way that does not conform to their wishes. I say this only because if they simply did not understand human nature they would not devise systems of implementation which masked the end result that they desire. Their unrelenting obedience to socialist type policy, in my opinion, is the best indication that they do indeed understand that humans don't want to participate in their wet dreams of grandiosity at the expense of their freedoms. They understand, like Marx, that free people will not choose a communist system necessitating the need for incrementalism or transformational "revolution" from freedom into servitude.
As to what the "left" really wants. Here I speak of the drooling class who simply go along with the omniscient class' plans for them. I don't really believe that they know what they want. For the most part, they seem to simply absorb the definitions of "justice", "equality", and "fairness" handed to them by their leaders. For example, they will go along with any wealth redistribution scheme put in front of their face because their leaders have convinced them that anyone with more than they have has somehow "stolen" it from them in some way. So they justify the theft of others as a form of retribution. But I do not believe that the drooling class really has any idea of the real intention of redistribution of wealth per se. They do not see, I believe, that the real goal is to place all people in servitude to Godvernmental control of the omniscient class. They do not believe that the "benevolent leaders" goal of "equality" really only means one thing. "Equality" to the omniscient class simply means that all people are equally powerless to resist their schemes. In the end, the followers, the "left", are simply willing victims to a plan that they cannot comprehend.
I am waiting for someone in the intellectual elite, er "omniscient class" to respond. There are a small few in this forum who understand and believe in The Republic and The Capital who may be willing to defend Amerika in its current form. Most people know who those members are here by now. I am particularly interested in one particular rich guy's take on the above. But thanks for the acknowledgement, even though those elitists here will soon come to the defense of Marx and his ilk with more propaganda advocating their misguided dillusions. Of course it will all be wrapped up in feel-good "morality" and language properly chosen to be devoured by the drooling class that they so love manipulating
Educated members of the left simply want what is described in The Capital and The Republic. Of course they see themselves as the omniscient ones able to implement those anti-human policies and ideas regardless of their oppressive nature. As always, they mask their true beliefs and intentions from the drooling class in forms of incrementalism, "justice", "equality", and "fairness". In the end, they are all megalomaniac totalitarians hell bent on forcing the rest of us to live in their idea of the perfect world through godvernment force. "Justice", "equality", and "fairness" are simply evaluated by how well the drooling class conforms to their particular eutopia. Suprisingly, the liberal elite who are obviously well educated in these systems of human slavery or government religions, seem completely ignorant of the basic human desire to be free.
This is where I have never been completely confident that I understand the other side. I am not talking about their followers, but the real intellectual elite who foster the growth of any cooercive "collective" type system. Either they truly do not understand human nature or they truly hate mankind. I suspect that they hate their fellow man's silly yearning to be free to live in a way that does not conform to their wishes. I say this only because if they simply did not understand human nature they would not devise systems of implementation which masked the end result that they desire. Their unrelenting obedience to socialist type policy, in my opinion, is the best indication that they do indeed understand that humans don't want to participate in their wet dreams of grandiosity at the expense of their freedoms. They understand, like Marx, that free people will not choose a communist system necessitating the need for incrementalism or transformational "revolution" from freedom into servitude.
As to what the "left" really wants. Here I speak of the drooling class who simply go along with the omniscient class' plans for them. I don't really believe that they know what they want. For the most part, they seem to simply absorb the definitions of "justice", "equality", and "fairness" handed to them by their leaders. For example, they will go along with any wealth redistribution scheme put in front of their face because their leaders have convinced them that anyone with more than they have has somehow "stolen" it from them in some way. So they justify the theft of others as a form of retribution. But I do not believe that the drooling class really has any idea of the real intention of redistribution of wealth per se. They do not see, I believe, that the real goal is to place all people in servitude to Godvernmental control of the omniscient class. They do not believe that the "benevolent leaders" goal of "equality" really only means one thing. "Equality" to the omniscient class simply means that all people are equally powerless to resist their schemes. In the end, the followers, the "left", are simply willing victims to a plan that they cannot comprehend.
I'm sorry, but this is not brilliant at all.
There is no omniscient class. There is no drooling class.
But clearly there are conservatives that think if they put the argument in these terms, that they sound thoughtful and intelligent.
Just a couple of points:
When the first group of people organized a system to make decisions for the group, ie they created a government, they got involved in the redistribution of wealth. Whenever a group decides to pool resources together for the benefit of the group and not of particular individuals, they are redistributing the wealth. It's not a leftist idea. It's a survival strategy.
Somewhere along the way, someone noticed that freedom is a funny thing. When you have the resources to exercise freedom, then freedom is taken for granted. When you don't have resources, it becomes clear that poverty is a much greater enemy of freedom than any government. So some left-wingers devised some strategies to alleviate poverty in a society. Communism certainly didn't work the way Marx hoped it would, it didn't even evolve the way he thought it would. Socialism has become more pervasive, however, and EVERY government in the world is to some degree socialist in the sense that they perform services for the public at large.
Socialism as an ideal has nothing whatsoever to do with totalitarianism. It is an economic philosophy based on the political philosophy that underlies democracy. It espouses the ability of people to work together to achieve economic goals. It is a response to the fact that in a completely free capitalist market that money and resources will be increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few. Rockefellers, Carnegies, Rothschilds. Money is a weight in the system and tends to pool. That tendency makes competition increasingly difficult and eventually impossible in an unfettered system. We know this, and that's why we break up monopolies.
There is no liberal elite. There have no masked intentions and do not promote human slavery. And all the arguments to that affect are simply poor imitations of the Red Scare of the 1950's.
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