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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 201 39.57%
No 258 50.79%
Unsure 49 9.65%
Voters: 508. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-15-2023, 12:59 PM
 
5,125 posts, read 2,802,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
There is some other strange thing in the making ( possibly), I've heard couple of days ago.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIJeqseEec&t=636s
I watch Redacted frequently and did see that story. An interesting way to put British boots on the ground and into the meat grinder. I hope that doesn't succeed into forcibly putting British citizens into uniform and then into the fight.
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Old 12-15-2023, 02:55 PM
 
26,925 posts, read 22,820,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post
I watch Redacted frequently and did see that story. An interesting way to put British boots on the ground and into the meat grinder. I hope that doesn't succeed into forcibly putting British citizens into uniform and then into the fight.

I see, so my point is - "it's not over till it's over."
Republicans willing to negotiate money for Ukraine in exchange for securing the border, EU's Von der Leyen coming up with her own schemes...

Ukraine is not Afghanistan for a number of reasons, so I don't think the West will give it up as easily, even if to keep in mind how close it is to Rammstein comparably to Afghanistan.
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Old 12-15-2023, 04:05 PM
 
5,125 posts, read 2,802,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I see, so my point is - "it's not over till it's over."
Republicans willing to negotiate money for Ukraine in exchange for securing the border, EU's Von der Leyen coming up with her own schemes...

Ukraine is not Afghanistan for a number of reasons, so I don't think the West will give it up as easily, even if to keep in mind how close it is to Rammstein comparably to Afghanistan.
Yes, it certainly is not over. But I think Round 1 goes to the Russians. They will very likely grab all the territory that they want in Ukraine. Then it will be the West's turn. And they can hit Russia anywhere - from Eastern Europe, Kaliningrad or St. Petersburg in the Baltic, the Far East, the Arctic to name a few. I suspect that is another reason why the Russians were going slow - to minimize casualties since they would need to defend those other areas, probably for years to come. They need those troops and are in it for the long haul. And the West needs to arm up and recruit many more soldiers if it wants to have any chance of pushing the Russians out of Ukraine. Even if the West decides right now to go full steam at Russia they would need a couple of years to get armed up, get a couple hundred thousand (at least) more recruits and position those forces in the areas that they want to attack in.

The silver lining is that patriotic Americans can step up to the plate and sign up for the military to fight the Russians, wherever they may be. And patriotic people from other Western countries can do the same. For King and Country as the British say. A learning experience for young people may be in store. And for not so young people like me as well. Not sure for what branch of the military I would volunteer for, but I'm big and strong, so maybe the US Army would fit the bill. But should join as an officer: http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...port-says.html

But we'll see what happens. Too early to dream yet.
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Old 12-15-2023, 06:47 PM
 
1,729 posts, read 921,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post
Yes, it certainly is not over. But I think Round 1 goes to the Russians. They will very likely grab all the territory that they want in Ukraine. Then it will be the West's turn. And they can hit Russia anywhere - from Eastern Europe, Kaliningrad or St. Petersburg in the Baltic, the Far East, the Arctic to name a few. I suspect that is another reason why the Russians were going slow - to minimize casualties since they would need to defend those other areas, probably for years to come. They need those troops and are in it for the long haul. And the West needs to arm up and recruit many more soldiers if it wants to have any chance of pushing the Russians out of Ukraine. Even if the West decides right now to go full steam at Russia they would need a couple of years to get armed up, get a couple hundred thousand (at least) more recruits and position those forces in the areas that they want to attack in.

The silver lining is that patriotic Americans can step up to the plate and sign up for the military to fight the Russians, wherever they may be. And patriotic people from other Western countries can do the same. For King and Country as the British say. A learning experience for young people may be in store. And for not so young people like me as well. Not sure for what branch of the military I would volunteer for, but I'm big and strong, so maybe the US Army would fit the bill. But should join as an officer: http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...port-says.html

But we'll see what happens. Too early to dream yet.
They may try to place some enlisted personnel in the war under the scheme of being advisors or peacekeepers, but building up an actual military to take on Russia very doubtful. That is essentially declaring WWIII, as it would invoke responses from other players. Would China sit by while its land border neighbor is invaded by hostile powers putting its security at risk? Recall the Korean war and Vietnam. I applaud you for being willing to sign up, but let's face reality, Americans are not going to line up to fight for Ukraine. They can't even point to it on map. Recruiting is in the dumps now.
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Old 12-15-2023, 06:59 PM
 
1,729 posts, read 921,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I see, so my point is - "it's not over till it's over."
Republicans willing to negotiate money for Ukraine in exchange for securing the border, EU's Von der Leyen coming up with her own schemes...

Ukraine is not Afghanistan for a number of reasons, so I don't think the West will give it up as easily, even if to keep in mind how close it is to Rammstein comparably to Afghanistan.
I can see NATO fragmenting. The U.S., U.K., Poland, and the Baltics will want to continue in some form or fashion.

I can see Germany, France, Turkey, and others will be in favor of accepting defeat and advocating negotiations.

The U.S. pays the bills so it will have the most leverage, but we're entering a new election cycle and Biden's poll numbers are significantly low, making his reelection prospects slim. His successor may take things in a different direction.
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Old 12-15-2023, 07:04 PM
 
5,125 posts, read 2,802,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
They may try to place some enlisted personnel in the war under the scheme of being advisors or peacekeepers, but building up an actual military to take on Russia very doubtful. That is essentially declaring WWIII, as it would invoke responses from other players. Would China sit by while its land border neighbor is invaded by hostile powers putting its security at risk? Recall the Korean war and Vietnam. I applaud you for being willing to sign up, but let's face reality, Americans are not going to line up to fight for Ukraine. They can't even point to it on map. Recruiting is in the dumps now.
Agree. This is an uphill climb for the Western powers.
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Old 12-15-2023, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
7,817 posts, read 2,761,970 times
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ISW Update 12/15/23

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...cember-15-2023

Quote:
Dec 15, 2023 - ISW Press

German outlet BILD stated on December 14 that unspecified intelligence findings and sources indicate that Russia plans to occupy Ukrainian territory beyond the four (illegally) annexed Ukrainian oblasts throughout 2024-2026. BILD stated that Russia plans to capture the entirety of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts and up to the Oskil River in Kharkiv Oblast by the end of 2024.
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Old 12-15-2023, 07:33 PM
 
1,907 posts, read 675,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
I would say the Vietnamese was better off. After decades of fighting, they finally had stability. No outside power was going to come in and try to subjugate them. They had, as we would say "their freedom." Contrast this to the Korean war. The two sides are still in a state of perpetual tension, with S. Korea becoming a vasal state of the U.S. and the North ruled by a highly paranoid and grandiose leader. Had that situation been allowed to play out without outside influence, we would probably have a stable peninsula.

Check out the below link. How ironic we spent billions of dollars, sent hundreds of thousands if not millions of people to their grave, only to 60 years later take photos in front of a shrine dedicated to the man that led the country to victory against the U.S.

https://dothaneagle.com/news/nation-...00e6a2c8c.html

Is any more proof needed that war was meaningless and the domino theory trash.
I can prove you wrong in so many ways but that would derail from the point of this thread.
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Old 12-15-2023, 09:25 PM
 
13,864 posts, read 5,080,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
My observation is not so much communism "was stopped" as it is, "died of its own inferiority".
In order for communism to function there must be one person at the top and that person, very often, must be a psychopath. Long term, communism, or modified communism as there is in Russia, is not a viable system of government. It will always fail.


That's what is happening to Russia. It is failing, even as it tries to expand. Wrong-headed decisions are being made which will destroy Russia regardless of what happens in Ukraine. Russia has been destroyed before, but this time its low birth rate will insure that it stays dead.


A writer at The Hill, has a slightly different view, although one with the same outcome:
Russia today is not “modified communism “. It’s a right wing, nationalist dictatorship. It has more in common with the tsars than the Bolsheviks. But the rest of your post I agree with.
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Old 12-15-2023, 09:29 PM
 
13,864 posts, read 5,080,266 times
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Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post
Yes, Putin said Odessa will be taken and added to Russia. Among other cities and areas. This is looking more and more like a "winner takes all" scenario. And the winner ain't Ukraine.

Plus, all offensive operations by Ukrainian forces have stopped due to severe ammunition shortages. Ukraine is now on the defensive with Russian forces on the offensive and taking more Ukrainian territory. The Ukrainians should have negotiated months ago when they had a chance. Now the Russians will not negotiate and will take whatever they want.

https://abcnews.go.com/International...y?id=105652583
How much territory has Russia taken in the past 6 months? Both sides continue to battle over a few worthless square miles near Bakhmut.
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