North Shore Connector: Positives (Pittsburgh, Manchester: sale, house, transfer)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

maybe they can raise $1.5 million annually, but if it comes down to a choice, I think it's more important to run the extra service than to have it be free.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I guess I would like to see an expert determine which of those two approaches (or blend thereof) would be expected to result in the highest total ridership. Unfortunately, they haven't released the actual studies, from which we might have been able to derive such a determination.

Anyway, hopefully they get the $1.5 million and it is moot.

and naming rights, if PNC takes a station, would people be confused as to whether it was the baseball park or the HQ? (people being visitors).

Couldn't that be solved by calling it something like "PNC Park Station"? I'm just guessing, but I suspect PNC would see that as accomplishing its marketing goals.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I don't necessarily disagree, but I guess I would like to see an expert determine which of those two approaches (or blend thereof) would be expected to result in the highest total ridership. Unfortunately, they haven't released the actual studies, from which we might have been able to derive such a determination.
Anyway, hopefully they get the $1.5 million and it is moot.

off peak headways are pretty poor. you may end up with a situation where the free zone makes sense at rush hour and the increased frequency is what is needed more off peak. headways are often the biggest problem. the whole idea of park on the north shore and take the t seems like a midcentury planning idea.

SEPTA’s board approved a five-year, $5 million agreement on Thursday to rename the Pattison Avenue subway station the AT&T station.
SEPTA will receive $3 million under the deal with AT&T to rename the station, located on the south end of the Broad Street line. The change is tentatively scheduled to occur in August. Titan Outdoor, which handles SEPTA’s advertising, will receive $2 million under the agreement, which includes the costs of making all of the changes.

SEPTA agrees to rename Pattison Ave. station AT&T station - Philadelphia Business Journal
it's possible but $1.5 million annually might be a little agressive but not impossible since they will be selling more than one station (ATT sees about 5500 riders per phillies game, about double that for an eagles game, and half that for a flyers game). realistically, the T would probably fetch a fraction of that per station I'd think.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

you may end up with a situation where the free zone makes sense at rush hour and the increased frequency is what is needed more off peak.

Makes sense to me--all the more reason to hope this can be funded up to the $1.5 million amount.

the whole idea of park on the north shore and take the t seems like a midcentury planning idea.

Indeed, although it can in fact be dated to the late 1990s/early 2000s--I guess the relevant people just had a 1950s mindset.

That said, the general question of how to get the most use out of this infrastructure on a regular basis (meaning outside of sporting events) is a reasonable one. I tend to agree with you that frequency of service seems at least as important as fare, but I have to admit I don't really know how the existing free zone has impacted ridership--maybe it has been more impressive than I am imagining.

realistically, the T would probably fetch a fraction of that per station I'd think.

I don't really know the details, but I get the impression they are offering more than just naming rights to the two new stadiums (e.g., there was a reference in the article to buying naming rights for the whole fare free zone). Just speculating wildly, I could see an entity like Rivers paying quite a bit for such expansive rights (e.g., if it was actually called "the Rivers Casino Line" or something like that).

[SammyKhalifa]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That said, the general question of how to get the most use out of this infrastructure on a regular basis (meaning outside of sporting events) is a reasonable one. I tend to agree with you that frequency of service seems at least as important as fare, but I have to admit I don't really know how the existing free zone has impacted ridership--maybe it has been more impressive than I am imagining.

Maybe there's something I just don't understand, but it seems to me that to get more use out of it it needs to go to more residential areas.

The free zone would seem a lot more useful to/for me if it were extended to the station sq station. I'd consider station square part of the "downtown" zone, drawing the line at Mt Washington. Right now the T is $3 to go across the river.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

Maybe there's something I just don't understand, but it seems to me that to get more use out of it it needs to go to more residential areas.

Well, yes, but that would require a lot more capital investment.

What I meant is that given that we will actually have this expensive and shiny-new infrastructure available, how can we squeeze the most benefit out of it? And in fact, one idea would be to bring more residential to the relevant area, something the development plan for the area between the stadiums is supposed to do, and which we should be seeking to maximize.

[SammyKhalifa]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Well, yes, but that would require a lot more capital investment.

What I meant is that given that we will actually have this expense and shiny-new infrastructure available, how can we squeeze the most benefit out of it? And in fact, one idea would be to bring more residential to the relevant area, something the development plan for the area between the stadiums is supposed to do, and which we should be seeking to maximize.

Yeah, I agree. I just still don't think that the T is much use except for people who live in the South Hills. I'll take it once in a while, but it's more for the novelty of it than anything else. I suppose if I worked downtown it might be a different story.

For me personally, by far the most useful mode of "public transportation" would have to be the Mon Incline: There's never much of a wait (when it's not broken), it goes somewhere useful, and there's no need to read a schedule to figure out if you're on the right "train."

I wonder if more people would use it if the cost of city parking at station sq got them onto the T to the North Shore as well? Or maybe that would ruin the point of the clipper.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Indeed, although it can in fact be dated to the late 1990s/early 2000s--I guess the relevant people just had a 1950s mindset.

back in, I think, the 50's. louis kahn came up with a plan for Philadelphia that would have involved driving to the outskirts of downtown and taking transit to get around. anyway, that's probably it, the people in power had a dated mindset. I'd say this is usually the case.

Originally Posted by Sammy Khalifa

Maybe there's something I just don't understand, but it seems to me that to get more use out of it it needs to go to more residential areas.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

...how to get the most use out of this infrastructure on a regular basis (meaning outside of sporting events) is a reasonable one. ..frequency of service seems at least as important as fare...

I don't find the free fare zone all that useful right now, headways are poor and it doesn't go that far. these would be addressed in an expanded free zone. on the other hand, the free fare zone may not be that important. as sammy points out, the current fare structure is ludicrous but having a city zone wouldn't be all that difficult. it also shouldn't be hard for general robinson to offer a package deal where parking and fares are paid together with the new connect card, with some revenue being kicked back to PAT.
right now red line service is every half hour friday and saturday, of the two, increasing trains to every ten or even 15 would be much more important that cost in making it useful. generally speaking, people perceive time to be much longer when waiting the rule of thumb is three times the actual time elapsed though it's probably less for an underground station and more when waiting above ground in cold weather or rain. I think ten minute intervals, even if only on fridays, saturdays, and gamedays on sunday would make the service much more useful than lower cost (again, assuming a choice...one hopes they can do it all).
and how about trains until 2:15 am friday and saturday nights as a way to boost nighttime activity and discourage drinking and driving?

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I don't really know the details, but I get the impression they are offering more than just naming rights to the two new stadiums (e.g., there was a reference in the article to buying naming rights for the whole fare free zone). Just speculating wildly, I could see an entity like Rivers paying quite a bit for such expansive rights (e.g., if it was actually called "the Rivers Casino Line" or something like that).

entirely possible, though maybe not $1.5 million a year. at least people are trying to do something.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

I suppose if I worked downtown it might be a different story.

We'll soon find out what, if any, immediate Downtown<-->North Shore effect there is going to be. Personally, I'm somewhat optimistic that in the long run, this will help bring enough new development to the North Shore such that when coupled with new residential development and increased visitation to Downtown we will actually get some flow back and forth. But all that might take a while, such that related ridership on the NSC only builds over time.

For me personally, by far the most useful mode of "public transportation" would have to be the Mon Incline: There's never much of a wait (when it's not broken), it goes somewhere useful, and there's no need to read a schedule to figure out if you're on the right "train."

You know there is another cable-driven technology with similar characteristics . . .

I wonder if more people would use it if the cost of city parking at station sq got them onto the T to the North Shore as well?

That's an interesting idea (a combo parking/T deal), that could potentially be used both ways if it doesn't all become one big "free zone".

[BrianTH]

A few more details about the naming rights (no deal yet):

Naming rights for sale for free T rides to North Shore

[Blackbeauty212]

Any guess on who will be the winning corporate sponsor.....

I'm guessing BNY Mellon will probably take the plunge, two reason:

1 - Their brand has taken a hit with the recent scandal, and "Mellon" name isn't as prominent with Pittsburgh as it used to be.

2 - They want to put their name on something else now that the Mellon Arena is no more, and what better way than to be associated in the same area as a landmark named after your rival bank wither PNC Park and Pittsburgh's other Iconic Brand in Heinz.