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"A recent study from the University of Frankford in Germany showed abnormal heart findings in more than 75% of people studied who had recently recovered from COVID-19. A considerable majority of patients in the study were found to have had inflammation in the heart and muscle lining.
This can be troubling as inflammation in the heart can lead to long-lasting cardiac disease and failure.
“There’s a lot more that needs to be studied, but it’s important to know that there’s the possibility out there that a coronavirus infection could mean development of a serious heart condition,” says Dr. Jacobs."
"Research shows COVID-19 can affect the brain and central nervous system. Some people have reported symptoms like headaches, dizziness, trouble concentrating or recalling things and even hallucinations after recovering from COVID-19. Investigators indicate that symptoms are most common in patients who had severe forms of disease. Strokes are also an ongoing concern among patients who have recovered from COVID-19. Learn more about if COVID-19 can cause a stroke.
“As inflammation increases in the body, so does the chance of a stroke-causing blood clot, although we do not yet entirely understand why clotting is more common with COVID-19 infection than with other viral infections such as the flu,” explains Dr. Jacobs. “Inflammation is known to be a risk factor damaging the heart. Others recovering from COVID-19 have had heartbeat irregularities as well.”
"A total of 78 patients who recovered from COVID-19 infection (78%) had cardiovascular involvement as detected by standardized CMR, irrespective of preexisting conditions, the severity and overall course of the COVID-19 presentation, the time from the original diagnosis, or the presence of cardiac symptoms. The most prevalent abnormality was myocardial inflammation (defined as abnormal native T1 and T2 measures), detected in 60 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 (60%), followed by regional scar and pericardial enhancement. Findings on classic parameters, such as volumes and ejection fractions, were mildly abnormal. Myocardial measures, native T1 measures, and native T2 measures provided the best discriminatory value against healthy controls and risk factor–matched controls for exclusion of any myocardial disease or confirmation of COVID-19–related involvement, respectively."
Wow I had heard up to 1/3 of "recovered" patients, but those numbers are pretty scary. I wonder if this is total positive, or just out of those who were hospitalized and/or developed serious symptoms?
How would anyone know if the unconfirmed/unknown cases are experiencing health issues months later? That's why they can't be included in this type of study. We can't just assume they're fine. They very well could be dealing with fatigue, brain fog, high blood pressure, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt32
Your original post said "75% of COVID survivors". That's an objectively inaccurate conclusion to draw from the data you had available. You're playing fast and loose with "could be"s; specious theorizing based on anecdotal reports and outliers is irresponsible when there isn't an emergency and irresponsible when there is an emergency.
Again, we know roughly what volume of people have gotten this and survived. It's huge. All infectious pathogens, including ones with a much higher IFR than this one, and including all the ones that are most genetically similar to SARS-CoV-2, leave a small portion of survivors with lingering problems, almost always the most acutely affected, almost always healing over time.
If you want to advance speculation that this virus breaks from that well-established norm and leaves the vast majority of those it infects with lingering or permanent damage - a claim that by definition implies tens of millions of people already impacted today - then the onus is on you to meet a high bar for evidence.
You're essentially promulgating the idea that getting this is a slow-motion death sentence; I'm not sure you're aware how damaging it is to stoke fear into the millions upon millions who have crossed paths with this infection already that they have no hope for recovery.
A COVID survivor is someone who tested positive and has recovered/survived.
I don't know how to make this any clearer: unconfirmed/unknown cases are not included. It is not possible to include them in this type of study.
For whatever reason, you want to downplay the seriousness of this by including an estimated number (with a huge range) of unconfirmed cases...and you want to irresponsibly assume that none of them have lingering health issues.
"A recent study from the University of Frankford in Germany showed abnormal heart findings in more than 75% of people studied who had recently recovered from COVID-19. A considerable majority of patients in the study were found to have had inflammation in the heart and muscle lining.
This can be troubling as inflammation in the heart can lead to long-lasting cardiac disease and failure.
“There’s a lot more that needs to be studied, but it’s important to know that there’s the possibility out there that a coronavirus infection could mean development of a serious heart condition,” says Dr. Jacobs."
"Research shows COVID-19 can affect the brain and central nervous system. Some people have reported symptoms like headaches, dizziness, trouble concentrating or recalling things and even hallucinations after recovering from COVID-19. Investigators indicate that symptoms are most common in patients who had severe forms of disease. Strokes are also an ongoing concern among patients who have recovered from COVID-19. Learn more about if COVID-19 can cause a stroke.
“As inflammation increases in the body, so does the chance of a stroke-causing blood clot, although we do not yet entirely understand why clotting is more common with COVID-19 infection than with other viral infections such as the flu,” explains Dr. Jacobs. “Inflammation is known to be a risk factor damaging the heart. Others recovering from COVID-19 have had heartbeat irregularities as well.”
"A total of 78 patients who recovered from COVID-19 infection (78%) had cardiovascular involvement as detected by standardized CMR, irrespective of preexisting conditions, the severity and overall course of the COVID-19 presentation, the time from the original diagnosis, or the presence of cardiac symptoms. The most prevalent abnormality was myocardial inflammation (defined as abnormal native T1 and T2 measures), detected in 60 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 (60%), followed by regional scar and pericardial enhancement. Findings on classic parameters, such as volumes and ejection fractions, were mildly abnormal. Myocardial measures, native T1 measures, and native T2 measures provided the best discriminatory value against healthy controls and risk factor–matched controls for exclusion of any myocardial disease or confirmation of COVID-19–related involvement, respectively."
I'm glad you posted this. Because when I posted this earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt32
or the paper it was based off was still a pre-print and it got retracted or revised, or has way too small of a sample size to be useful.
I was referring to exactly that paper. I'll spare you the Twitter drama but a leading cardiologist who has worked with and knows the authors noticed that the interquartile ranges made zero practical sense and followed up with the authors and journal. The paper was then retracted and resubmitted with adjusted ranges. Although the journal left the summary conclusions the same, the adjustment to the risk factor matched control group found that there was no statistically significant difference versus the cohort studied.
Long story short: This conclusion has been obsolete for months, but the follow-up didn't attract nearly as much media attention, because doom sells more than not-doom.
A COVID survivor is someone who tested positive and has recovered/survived.
I don't know how to make this any clearer: unconfirmed/unknown cases are not included. It is not possible to include them in this type of study.
For whatever reason, you want to downplay the seriousness of this by including an estimated number (with a huge range) of unconfirmed cases...and you want to irresponsibly assume that none of them have lingering health issues.
Who is playing fast and loose?
There's nothing wrong with the study working with the cohort available rather than the cohort not available. There is something wrong with you taking the narrow results of that study (which you still haven't linked) as means to generalize towards a wildly gruesome characterization of universal (by the tens of millions) post-viral damage.
Every study has a section on limitations. It's there for a reason. Have you read it? Did you make sure to stop and assess whether their findings are or are not reasonable to generalize? If you did not do so before posting your original comment, why?
This conclusion has been obsolete for months, but the follow-up didn't attract nearly as much media attention, because doom sells more than not-doom.
This kind of Twitter driven drivel has been happening way too much. It’s amusing to watch people cherry pick out of context information that suits their personal narrative.
Last edited by porterhouse; 09-14-2020 at 08:57 PM..
Because so many people are only focused on the small % of deaths, and they don't seem to realize that there's a high likelihood that they would suffer from chronic and debilitating health issues for their foreseeable future if they get the virus. It's not all or nothing.
And, yes, we should continue to live life as we are now. We can't just go back to normal; the virus doesn't care if we're tired of it.
It’s easier said than done. I’m personally fine with continuing to work from home. My boss/dept seems to be as well. But as far as my kids schooling goes I dunno. My 6 yr old is in school in person two days a week, home 3 days a week. I would have thought that normally he’d be in school 5 days a week. My 4 year old is in school 3 days a week. I worry less about her. I guess we’ll see what this year brings but if we want to keep numbers low then yes people will have to continue to work from home for a while and it seems like schools will need to stay closed or hybrid. Restaurants~I’m not sure. I love food. I think I’ve craved food even more during this pandemic out of anxiety. I wish I was afraid to eat but I’m not. I’ve gained about 15 lbs. so that is not good. Not sure what to do about it as I don’t want to join a gym because I’m not sure how long I’ll be working from home. Walking is my exercise for now.
Interesting article in JAMA Neurology re relative risk of ischemic stroke... Covid-19 producing 8x greater strokes:
- 1.6% of Covid-19 patients who are hospitalized have an ischemic stroke
- 0.2% of Influenza patients who are hospitalized have an ischemic stroke
Interesting article in JAMA Neurology re relative risk of ischemic stroke... Covid-19 producing 8x greater strokes:
- 1.6% of Covid-19 patients who are hospitalized have an ischemic stroke
- 0.2% of Influenza patients who are hospitalized have an ischemic stroke
I love the "Limitations" section of this study because they highlight factors that could cause their results to be overstated and factors that could cause their results to be understated. Worth a read in full.
For the curious, a couple follow-ups to the ever-pressing "heart damage" question:
"It’s also worth pointing out that headline number of 78% of COVID-19 patients’ hearts being affected is misleading on its own but features prominent in the “findings” section of the paper, the “abstract”, and, of course, many subsequent media reports. The reason it is misleading is because it implies that if you don’t get COVID-19 your heart is totally healthy and it’s COVID-19 that causes a problem when actually, things that make you more susceptible to getting COVID might also mean you didn’t have a healthy heart to start with."
(Emphasis added)
This is a key "chicken or the egg?" nuance that anyone asserting generalization based off a study needs to account for, before they jump to broad statements about "X% of everyone with...!".
Note that you will not find them claiming that COVID-19 has nothing to do with heart damage. To the contrary, they want to see this studied more. Their beef, though, is with sensationalized, broad-swath conclusions being drawn off limited data that does not justify those conclusions:
"Nonetheless, these reports have attracted significant media coverage, at times amplified by speculation on possible clinical implications, thus generating substantial anxiety amongst members of the general public."
Proper warning that this site is not peer-reviewed, it is an open-ended editorial forum for cardiology professionals. Review their credentials and assess their credibility for yourself.
2020, and here we are hanging out with the cardiology geeks. What a year!
I love the "Limitations" section of this study because they highlight factors that could cause their results to be overstated and factors that could cause their results to be understated. Worth a read in full.
One of the mechanisms of pathology for Covid-19 that has been well documented is the occurrence of hypercoagulability / coagulopathy in many patients with severe forms of the illness. I recall reading a case report where a neurosurgeon was reporting that "I have never seen anything like this"... as he worked to remove a clot from the patient's brain, he saw new clots appearing before his eyes on the monitor.
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