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I don't think that's really the issue at all. Downtown DC has a lot of federal buildings that have restrictions on retail.
Take this superblock on 15th Street right by the W Hotel, for example. The building to the left is the Treasury. You can't exactly put a nightclub, a Rosa Mexicano and a Dunkin Donuts at the bottom of it.
These museums and government buildings have HUGE footprints.
This is true. I would also add that if you follow that map and make a right onto New York Avenue, you can see how it's BEGGING to be turned into a retail shopping district.
San Francisco, Boston and Philadelphia all used to be like that sans highrises.
Agree and the vast majority of the their density is derived by structures lower than the DC height limit
I would even say that if you were to look at say Rittenhouse and Washington Sq West in Philadelphia maybe only 20-30 residential structures are taller than the limit in DC (and all have a smaller footprint many with much smaller buildings intertwined on the same block). Most streets driving this vibrancy are more like this
I don't think that's really the issue at all. Downtown DC has a lot of federal buildings that have restrictions on retail.
Take this superblock on 15th Street right by the W Hotel, for example. The building to the left is the Treasury. You can't exactly put a nightclub, a Rosa Mexicano and a Dunkin Donuts at the bottom of it.
The irony is that the very thing that gives DC's economy such vitality (the Federal Government) makes its Downtown completely lifeless in many parts.
That area is on the tip of the lower part of the northern downtown. It gives way to the National Mall which will always be dead just like Central Park at Nighttime on most nights. The National Mall acts like a public park dividing the northern and southern downtowns in DC.
Downtown North in DC that you are referencing is expanding greatly in vibrancy in the opposite direction. The density is multiplying to the east and north of Downtown north. Shaw, Logan Circle, and Mid City are extending the CBD footprint. The vibrancy from all these new residential buildings being added to downtown is really going to change DC. Downtown North is growing to the east through Mt. Vernon Triangle. Its connection to Northwest One, NOMA, and the Atlas District is essentially doubling Downtown North's footprint.
The national mall will always be a dead zone. There is something brewing south of the mall though. The sounds of cranes and tools will soon give way to a fully functioning southern downtown in DC with a waterfront coastal line for downtown south in DC which will boost DC to unprecedented levels.
I think a lot of people visit DC and don't go much beyond the national mall, museums etc. The most vibrant parts of DC are not near those areas.
I have been quite impressed with all the development near the New York Ave metro station. It's really starting to fill in there all the way to Union Station.
I think a lot of people visit DC and don't go much beyond the national mall, museums etc. The most vibrant parts of DC are not near those areas.
I have been quite impressed with all the development near the New York Ave metro station. It's really starting to fill in there all the way to Union Station.
DC's Downtown Core will eclipse Manhattan in square milage soon. The downtown footprint is growing at an alarming rate. DC will never come close to NYC on vibrancy, but DC will definetly rival NYC in consistent downtown development. In 2020, CBD level development will extend throught the following Neighborhoods.
West to East from:
1. FoggyBottom
2. Dupont Circle
3. Logan Circle/Mid City
4. Shaw/Penn Quarter
5. Mt. Vernon Triangle
6. NorthWest One
7. NOMA
8. Atlas District
North to South From:
1. Columbia Heights/MidCity/Dupont Circle/Shaw
2. Foggy Bottom/MidTown/Penn Quarter/Mt. Vernon Triangle/NorthWest One/NOMA/Atlas District
3. National Mall (Dead Zone)
4. SW Eco District
5. SW Waterfront/Capital Riverfront/Barracks Row
1. FoggyBottom
2. Dupont Circle
3. Logan Circle/Mid City
4. Shaw/Penn Quarter
5. Mt. Vernon Triangle
6. NorthWest One
7. NOMA
8. Atlas District
North to South From:
1. Columbia Heights/MidCity/Dupont Circle/Shaw
2. Foggy Bottom/MidTown/Penn Quarter/Mt. Vernon Triangle/NorthWest One/NOMA/Atlas District
3. National Mall (Dead Zone)
4. SW Eco District
5. SW Waterfront/Capital Riverfront/Barracks Row
This area is bigger than the island of Manhattan.
These areas are larger than Manhattan, but what's the point of the comparison? They aren't anything like Manhattan.
Places like SW Waterfront or Shaw aren't even as dense as Brooklyn/Bronx/Queens. Why would you compare Shaw to Manhattan of all places? Shaw is mostly single family homes, which are almost nonexistent in Manhattan.
These areas are larger than Manhattan, but what's the point of the comparison? They aren't anything like Manhattan.
Places like SW Waterfront or Shaw aren't even as dense as Brooklyn/Bronx/Queens. Why would you compare Shaw to Manhattan of all places? Shaw is mostly single family homes, which are almost nonexistent in Manhattan.
Single family homes in Shaw? Where? Are you talking about rowhouses? Also, many of those are already condo's or being converted to condo's. You are looking at this area in 2012 eyes by the way. I'm talking about what this area will be in 2020-2025. Most of this area will have a density of 40,000-70,000 people per square mile. What has happened in Logan Circle which is 60,000+ people per square mile is also happening in all these area's. Capital Riverfront is adding 8,000 units and NOMA is adding 10,000 units just to give you an example. I know it is hard for people that aren't planners to have vision mapping out what an area will look like which defies what their eyes currently see. If you followed development in DC closely though, you would cosign with me. The area's I have mapped out will be full of tightly packed 8-13 story residential buildings which is the exact height needed for the type of density I have pointed towards.
Single family homes in Shaw? Where? You are looking at this area in 2012 eyes by the way. I'm talking about what this area will be in 2020-2025. Most of this area will have a density of 40,000-70,000 people per square mile. What has happened in Logan Circle which is 60,000+ people per square mile is also happening in all these area's. Capital Riverfront is adding 8,000 units and NOMA is adding 10,000 units just to give you an example. I know it is hard for people that aren't planners to have vision mapping out what an area will look like which defies what their eyes currently see. If you followed development in DC closely though, you would cosign with me.
Most between 40-70K Come on MD I was there this weekend, no way all tose areas will be even close to this sustained (maybe peak in the nabes but no way sustained). You also ASSUME this growth continues for another 20 years.
You continue to miss the points on what people
It takes a lot more than 8,000 units
DC is making great strides but you are shall we a little over zelous Not to mention that even the density you describe are not close to Manhattan, nor the retail, nor the commercial, nor even the PT
DC is a great city but reading your press one would think it is on the level of a NYC, Paris, or London Just not the case and wont be the case in 2030 either.
The changes are dramatic but temper your assertions, they come off sounding outlandish
20 years is a long way away. the Govt (yes you know as well as I do the govt spend drove this groth) wont continue at this level, you are crazy to believe that...
I like what I continued to see, still many issues in the DT. Walked by McCormick and Schmidts on Saturday afternoon (was a tad hot) and all the wait staff at 1:15 was playing bean bag toss because there were no patrons (none) for lunch. There are and will be many dead zones, too much commercial and not enough other. it is getting better though.
Also as an aside i really enjoyed the Dupont Circle farmers market on Sunday. Was really good albeit smaller but that is a really good nabe IMHO and a great market.
Also another side note, the rooftop bar at the W gives a great view (you really can see the cranes everywhere not mention views well worth the price of a drink plus views into Roslyn etc.) and did a few tourity things (havent done in quite some time) including the evening double decker bus, was really nice and great views - recommend the night tour
Last edited by kidphilly; 08-02-2012 at 07:12 AM..
Single family homes in Shaw? Where? Are you talking about rowhouses?
Yes, those rowhouses are mostly single family homes, which are extremely rare in Manhattan, and fairly rare in most parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx. The density is much lower in DC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
Also, many of those are already condo's or being converted to condo's. You are looking at this area in 2012 eyes by the way. I'm talking about what this area will be in 2020-2025.
I find it very hard to believe that within 8 years Shaw will be comparable to Manhattan. You're telling me that Shaw will be wall-to-wall 20 floor buildings with no parking and no alleys within 8 years? They're going to bulldoze everything there, including Howard U. and all the nice rowhomes?
There is currently no DC neighborhood comparable to Manhattan. The denser areas (say Dupont Circle/Kalorama/Foggy Bottom) are more like Brooklyn.
So I find it hard to believe that in just 8 years these neighborhoods will magically become Manhattan-like. That would be impossible unless you demolished almost everything in DC and rebuilt from scratch.
I don't even think your scenario would be legal. I don't think DC allows soaring towers anywhere. You can't get Manhattan-like density even at that top 12-floor or so limit you see with new residentials in the densest parts of DC.
Most between 40-70K Come on MD I was there this weekend, no way all tose areas will be even close to this sustained (maybe peak in the nabes but no way sustained). You also ASSUME this growth continues for another 20 years.
You continue to miss the points on what people
It takes a lot more than 8,000 units
DC is making great strides but you are shall we a little over zelous Not to mention that even the density you describe are not close to Manhattan, nor the retail, nor the commercial, nor even the PT
DC is a great city but reading your press one would think it is on the level of a NYC, Paris, or London Just not the case and wont be the case in 2030 either.
The changes are dramatic but temper your assertions, they come off sounding outlandish
20 years is a long way away. the Govt (yes you know as well as I do the govt spend drove this groth) wont continue at this level, you are crazy to believe that...
I like what I continued to see, still many issues in the DT. Walked by McCormick and Schmidts on Saturday afternoon (was a tad hot) and all the wait staff at 1:15 was playing bean bag toss because there were no patrons (none) for lunch. There are and will be many dead zones, too much commercial and not enough other. it is getting better though.
Also as an aside i really enjoyed the Dupont Circle farmers market on Sunday. Was really good albeit smaller but that is a really good nabe IMHO and a great market.
Did you even read what I said? I know you usually lack reading comprehension skills but this is getting ridicoulous! Also, what do you think that area is starting at 0 people when I said it's adding 8,000 units? That is more than enough to reach between 40,000-60,000 people per square mile in density.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
DC's Downtown Core will eclipse Manhattan in square milage soon. The downtown footprint is growing at an alarming rate. DC will never come close to NYC on vibrancy, but DC will definetly rival NYC in consistent downtown development. In 2020, CBD level development will extend throught the following Neighborhoods.
Sometimes I wonder if you are reading trying to comprehend what people say or if you just float in the clouds with your eyes closed when you type.
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