Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle? (evolution, Matthew, baptism)
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Where does the division come from in Christianity? Does it come from the teachings of Paul? Are the New Testament christians followers of Paul? Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law of Moses but to fulfil it and that the pharisees were teaching the doctrines of men, in place of/along side of the law of Moses.
Were the 12 apostles hand picked by Jesus and did they need to be eye witnesses of his baptism and resurrection? Does Pauls conversion seem to be similar to the experience of what a lot of Christians term false prophets - eg, Mohummad, Ellen White, Joseph Smith?
Are there any Messianic Jews here, what do you think about the teachings of Paul?
This sounds like the RED LETTER boys to me...take everything out of the bible and just leave those that are in RED which are Christ's Words...
[SIZE=2]As Jesus said in John 15:14, "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you"
Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water" Peter walked on the water to Jesus until he became afraid and began to sink. Peter cried out, "Lord save me" Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doult?" > Matthew 14:28 -31
Peter said to Jesus, "I will never be made to stumble." Jesus replied to Peter, Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." When Jesus came back from praying to His Father, Jesus found Peter and the two sons of Zebedee sleeping. Then Jesus said to Peter, "What! Could you not watch with Me one hour." Peter did deny knowing Jesus three times before the rooster crows. > Matthew 26:31 - 75
Jesus asked Peter three times, "Do you love Me?" Each of the three times Peter answered Jesus saying, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." and each of the three times Jesus replied to Peter, "Feed My sheep." Then Jesus continued saying to Peter, "Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."
This prophecy about Peter came true when Peter stretched his hands out to support Saul/Paul. "Our beloved Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, ---, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also to the rest of the scriptures." > 2 Peter 3:15 - 16
According to the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, St. Peter labored in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his life by martyrdom.[/SIZE][SIZE=2][12][/SIZE][SIZE=2] The death of St. Peter is attested to by [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Tertullian[/SIZE][SIZE=2] at the end of the second century, and by [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Origen[/SIZE][SIZE=2] in Eusebius, Church History III.1. Origen says: "Peter was crucified at Rome with his head downwards, as he himself had desired to suffer."[/SIZE][SIZE=2][12][/SIZE][SIZE=2] This is why an upside down cross is generally accepted as a symbol of Peter, who would not have considered himself worthy enough to die the same way as his Master.[/SIZE][SIZE=2][28][/SIZE]
Luke, the accepted author of the book of Acts has been called "the father of Christian Church History." Acts addresses those who are in need of information about the foundation of the Christian Church. It was after the Damascus Road Events, in Antioch that the followers of Saul/Paul and 'his Christ' were first called Christians which was being of Christian Church History. The genesis of Christianity and Christian Churches started from one, or all three versions of the Damascus Road Event, and because Saul/Paul became "all things to all men" > I Cor. 9:22.
Saul/Paul was on the road to Damascus because he obtained authority from the high priest to pursue and round up any followers of Jesus that he could find in the synagogues of Damascus.
Written in Acts 9:1, Saul/Paul had an extreme hatred against the people of the Way, and as written in Acts 22:4-5, Saul/Paul said, "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women, as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished."
Written in Act 26:10-12, Saul/Paul said, "This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them I persecuted them even to foreign cities. While thus occupied as I journeyed to Damascus."
As written in the above Saul/Paul's character is very well defined and why he was on the road to Damascus is also very well explain. When Saul was on the road to Damascus the testimony of Jesus has already reached foreign cities and has been spreading rapidly since the 'Day of Pentecost'. On 'Day of Pentecost', Acts 2:1-12, it says that there were devout men present from every nation under heaven filled with the Holy Spirit to go and teach to observe the testimony that Jesus has already given. No wonder Saul was in such a murderous rage by that time when he was on the road to Damascus! 'Saul's Lord' rescued him from his dilemna
Someone may know how much time passed by from the 'Day of Pentecost' to that day on the Damascus road and to the time when Saul/Paul saw 'his Christ' tell him, "Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning 'Me'." > Acts 22:18. Saul/Paul was not one of the devout men on the 'Day of Pentecost'.
It is very important to know testimony of Jesus first before you read the three versions of Saul's conversion. Jesus said, "Learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, ---" > Matt. 11:28-29, --- "ALL THINGS that I heard from My Father I have made known to you." > John 15:15, and "the words that I have spoken will judge him in the last days" > John 12:48, but in disagreement with the testimony of Jesus Saul/Paul said, "In that day when God will judge the secrets of men by 'Jesus Christ', according to my gospel."
Version 1, Acts 9:3-18 ---> 'An angel of light' who called himself Jesus blinded Saul and told him, all things would be told in Damascus. The men with Saul stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. --- There is mentioned that Saul was blinded for three days. 'Saul's Jesus' also spoke to Ananias in a Vision, of Saul's new status and mission. Putting his hand on Saul, Ananias told Saul, "the Lord who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately there fell from his eyes somethings like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. > Acts 9:17-18
Version 2, Acts 22, 6-14 ---> 'An angel of light' who called himself Jesus blinded Saul and told him, all things would be told in Damascus. The men with Saul saw the light, but they did not hear the voice that spoke to Saul. A devout Jew named Ananias who had a good report of all the Jews which dwelt in Damascus, was chosen to tell Saul his purpose. Ananias said, "The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. For you will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. > Acts 22:14-15 ---." There is mention of Saul being blinded and Ananias putting his hands on Saul restored Saul's sight in the same hour. Then, Ananias told Saul, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the 'Lord'." > Acts 22:16
Version 3, Acts 26:13-19 ---> Saul/Paul testified to King Agrippa that he was not disobedient to his heavenly vision, and 'Saul's Jesus as 'an angel of light' directly told Saul his purpose on the Road to Damascus. 'Saul's Jesus' said, "rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you;" > Acts 26:16. But there is no mention of Saul being blinded for three days by this 'angel of light' that claimed to be Jesus. Also Ananias is not mentioned because there was no need of him. Christians scholars have not explained why Luke wrote these three versions of the Damascus Road Event. Also, why is it that Saul/Paul's baptism was different than the baptism that was done by John the Baptist for Jesus?
Written in Act 9:5, Acts 22:8, and Acts 26:15, Saul asked, "Who are you, Lord?" before 'his Lord' even answered him saying, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting." If you know testimony of Jesus, you will know that Jesus was persecuted and crucified and He was ascended to sit with His Father on His throne being One, the Alpha, and the Omega, as written in 'The Revelation'. --- Jesus was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. This same Jesus who was taken up into heaven will so come in the same manner as He was received. > Acts 1:9-11. Before Jesus went to the Father, He said, "because go to My Father and you see Me No more;" > John 16:10. ---> Also Jesus said, "I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." > Luke 13:35 + Matt 23:39. ---> "THEN they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory" > Matt. 24:29-31, Mark 13:24 - 26 + Luke 21:27. The Jesus that Saul/Paul saw was Not Jesus, but was an angel of light who said, "I am Jesus."
Satan as an angel of light, who is the ruler of this world, the prince of the air, came to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus in the place of Jesus the Christ to deceive the whole world, even very elect if at all possible. Jesus has warned, "For false Christs, and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive; if possible, even the elect. > Matt. 24:24 Mark 13:22
As Written in Rev. 5:1-7, John wept so much because no one was found worthy take the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sits on the throne with His Father as One, the Alpha, and the Omega, until one of elders said, "Do not weep --->." A Lamb was found in the midst of the throne who was not deceived, and was found worthy -------. >>> This Lamb that was found in the midst of the throne is 'He who comes in the name of the Lord." > Luke 13:35 + Matt 23:39
Jesus said, "ALL AUTHORITY has been given into Me in heaven and on earth " > Matt. 28:18, "ALL THINGS that I heard from My Father I have made known to you." > John 15:15, "the words that I have spoken will judge him in the last days" > John 12:48, and "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will by no means pass away." > Matt. 24:35. Because of testimony of Jesus, "the ruler of this world is judged." > John 16:11. Saul/Paul's testimony concerning 'His Jesus Christ' (Acts 22:18) will be judged by the testimony of Jesus in the last days.
The Son of Man who sits on the throne with Father as One, is the Alpha and the Omega who said, "Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his works" > Rev. 22:12 "He shall reward every man according to his works. > Matt 16:27.
Someone may know how much time passed by from the 'Day of Pentecost' to that day on the Damascus road and to the time when Saul/Paul saw 'his Christ' tell him, "Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning 'Me'." > Acts 22:18. Saul/Paul was not one of the devout men on the 'Day of Pentecost'.
Satan as an angel of light, who is the ruler of this world, the prince of the air, came to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus in the place of Jesus the Christ to deceive the whole world, even very elect if at all possible. Jesus has warned, "For false Christs, and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive; if possible, even the elect. > Matt. 24:24 Mark 13:22
Passages that need to be pondered upon...
1) When Jesus was resurrected...he no longer bore the human name Jesus alone but "The Christ" in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 53:1-12 among others.
He would have introduced himself with the title which cannot be claimed by others! No longer will the people...in the time of his ministry and ascension...see him again until the day of glory when he shall appear again to the world...not in secret, but in full knowledge of all, per Psalm 97:1-12
"The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles (7 continents?) be glad thereof."
Luke was being faithful to his writings in that...he recorded exactly what transpired and how it was changed later by Paul. imho
2) In Luke's account of the Damascus event...he wrote that the people who were with Paul...HEARD but did not SEE." Acts 9:7
When Paul recounted this he changed it to "They SAW but not HEARD." Acts 22:9
Could this be a ploy to eliminate the witnesses and thus...be free to exaggerate what actually transpired??? Acts 26:16-18
3) Paul's attitude in demeaning Peter in public does not display a compassionate love for his brethren (he could have admonished Peter in secret, so as not to shame him.) Galatians 2:11
In addition...he belied the special selection of the 12 apostles (there are only 12 after all) with this statement...
2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
4) Peter displayed compassion by his subtle warning regarding the writings of Paul. Peter 3:15-16
Lastly...the selection of the 12 apostles (teachers) had to be among the 120 disciples (Acts 1:15 students under Jesus' tutelage...) the prerequisite for becoming one.
Acts 1:21-26 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.
Supported by Proverbs 16:33 The lot was cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had 12 foundations, and in them the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb (witnesses of The Christ.)
The 12 Apostles...representatives of the 12 tribes - imho
1) When Jesus was resurrected...he no longer bore the human name Jesus alone but "The Christ" in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 53:1-12 among others.
He would have introduced himself with the title which cannot be claimed by others! No longer will the people...in the time of his ministry and ascension...see him again until the day of glory when he shall appear again to the world...not in secret, but in full knowledge of all, per Psalm 97:1-12
"The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles (7 continents?) be glad thereof."
Luke was being faithful to his writings in that...he recorded exactly what transpired and how it was changed later by Paul. imho
2) In Luke's account of the Damascus event...he wrote that the people who were with Paul...HEARD but did not SEE." Acts 9:7
When Paul recounted this he changed it to "They SAW but not HEARD." Acts 22:9
Could this be a ploy to eliminate the witnesses and thus...be free to exaggerate what actually transpired??? Acts 26:16-18
3) Paul's attitude in demeaning Peter in public does not display a compassionate love for his brethren (he could have admonished Peter in secret, so as not to shame him.) Galatians 2:11
In addition...he belied the special selection of the 12 apostles (there are only 12 after all) with this statement...
2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
4) Peter displayed compassion by his subtle warning regarding the writings of Paul. Peter 3:15-16
Lastly...the selection of the 12 apostles (teachers) had to be among the 120 disciples (Acts 1:15 students under Jesus' tutelage...) the prerequisite for becoming one.
Acts 1:21-26 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.
Supported by Proverbs 16:33 The lot was cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had 12 foundations, and in them the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb (witnesses of The Christ.)
The 12 Apostles...representatives of the 12 tribes - imho
He who has an ear...hear...
Peace!
Wait a sec ... Luke was Paul's right hand man, so if Paul were a False Apostle, then doesn't that implicate Luke as well as the other apostles for their acceptance of him and association with him?
Short answer . . . NO! Do not confuse the cultural ignorance with the spiritual wisdom of Paul. His spiritual wisdom commends his discipleship . . . the cultural ignorance was a widespread phenomenon of the era in which he lived, period.
Paul's writing in Roman 13 should awake anyone who knows what Satan offered in the temptation of Christ in Matthew 4:8-9. "all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them" belongs to Satan who is offering it to Jesus. Romans 13:1 says: "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but from God: the powers that are, are ordained by God." The clear question here becomes WHICH is the "God" that Paul is taking about? Since we know "all the kingdoms of the world" belongs to Satan than it becomes clear that if Paul demands our submission to the powers in place, he is in fact asking for our submission to Satan the true God he worshipes that gave him his revelation on the road to Damascus! Jesus couldn't be the one that appeared to Paul, simply because people were not to be forced into following Yahweh no more (like the Jews) but would come to Him on their own free will. I'm pretty sure that if any non-believer was to live the alledge "Paul conversion" he would also convert! Therefore, if Paul story was right it would be really unfair to all other non-believer to not have the chance of converting after that kind of encounter! Don't let them fool you...
Preacher man, don't tell me,
Heaven is under the earth.
I know you don't know
What life is really worth.
...
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights. jah!
Let us true believers of the word of Love make heaven on earth!
Paul's writing in Roman 13 should awake anyone who knows what Satan offered in the temptation of Christ in Matthew 4:8-9. "all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them" belongs to Satan who is offering it to Jesus. Romans 13:1 says: "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but from God: the powers that are, are ordained by God." The clear question here becomes WHICH is the "God" that Paul is taking about? Since we know "all the kingdoms of the world" belongs to Satan than it becomes clear that if Paul demands our submission to the powers in place, he is in fact asking for our submission to Satan the true God he worshipes that gave him his revelation on the road to Damascus! Jesus couldn't be the one that appeared to Paul, simply because people were not to be forced into following Yahweh no more (like the Jews) but would come to Him on their own free will. I'm pretty sure that if any non-believer was to live the alledge "Paul conversion" he would also convert! Therefore, if Paul story was right it would be really unfair to all other non-believer to not have the chance of converting after that kind of encounter! Don't let them fool you...
Preacher man, don't tell me,
Heaven is under the earth.
I know you don't know
What life is really worth.
...
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights. jah!
Let us true believers of the word of Love make heaven on earth!
Paul's writing in Roman 13 should awake anyone who knows what Satan offered in the temptation of Christ in Matthew 4:8-9. "all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them" belongs to Satan who is offering it to Jesus. Romans 13:1 says: "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but from God: the powers that are, are ordained by God." The clear question here becomes WHICH is the "God" that Paul is taking about? Since we know "all the kingdoms of the world" belongs to Satan than it becomes clear that if Paul demands our submission to the powers in place, he is in fact asking for our submission to Satan the true God he worshipes that gave him his revelation on the road to Damascus! Jesus couldn't be the one that appeared to Paul, simply because people were not to be forced into following Yahweh no more (like the Jews) but would come to Him on their own free will. I'm pretty sure that if any non-believer was to live the alledge "Paul conversion" he would also convert! Therefore, if Paul story was right it would be really unfair to all other non-believer to not have the chance of converting after that kind of encounter! Don't let them fool you...
Preacher man, don't tell me,
Heaven is under the earth.
I know you don't know
What life is really worth.
...
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights. jah!
Let us true believers of the word of Love make heaven on earth!
You have just implied that the majority of the New Testament is a fraud. In so doing you have attacked the word of God.
In Acts, which was written by Luke, the Lord gave His endorsment of Paul.
Acts 9:13 'But Ananias answered, ''Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Thy saints at Jerusalem; 14] and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon Thy name.''
15] But the Lord said to him, ''Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16] For I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake.''
Here is Peter's endorsment of Paul.
2 Peter 3:14 'Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless 15] and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16] as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Who are you to argue with the Lord? Who are you to dispute the testimony of the other apostles concerning Paul?
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-18-2011 at 02:06 PM..
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