Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle? (rituals, Solomon, disciple)
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LOL! Well, juj, I'm glad you at least like me. A lot of people think my posts are "a pile of stuff" and don't like me besides!
Well, more or less. You know, I'm not exactly unique in believing that the early church fell into apostasy and that it did so early on. There were, after all, literally dozens of competing Christian groups as early as the end of the first century. Paul saw an apostasy happening in his day and his writings are full of warnings. He was talking about things that were going on at that time. He specifically said that Christ would not return until after both a "falling away" (an "apostasia") and a "restitution of all things" had taken place. I don't think it's at all difficult to believe that this is what happened. As a matter of fact, I think it was absolutely inevitable that it happened.
Hey, relax. Nobody said that. Any Christian who doesn't acknowledge the Catholic Church's hand in safeguarding the scriptures is nuts. I, for one, feel a tremendous debt of gratitude to the Catholic Church for preserving the Bible as well as it did. No, I don't think it's perfect, but I would never imply that it's "worthless and unreliable."
Apostles were used for setting up the Churches and establishing Christianity around the then known world...after the churches are set up there is no need for the Apostolic positions...it is already established and now needs to grow...
I disagree. Paul could not have been much more clear about how the institutional Church was to be organized and to function in the Savior's absence. Here's what he said (from Ephesians 4:11-14):
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive...
If I were to try to explain in modern English what Paul was saying, I would say this:
And He (Jesus Christ) appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. His purpose in doing so was to perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. These were to remain in place until all of us are unified in the faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, enabling us to grow to maturity in the Lord. Otherwise, we will continue to be like children in the gospel, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who are crafty and who desire to deceive us.
It wasn't just the words of the Apostles that would be needed until the Savior's return. It was individuals who held the same authority as the original twelve did and who functioned as they functioned in directing the affairs of the Church. Paul clearly prophesied the confusion that would exist without functioning Apostles. And look what we have today... 30,000+ different denominations, all claiming to be right, all being unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines. It's exactly what he said would happen.
LOL! Well, juj, I'm glad you at least like me. A lot of people think my posts are "a pile of stuff" and don't like me besides!
Well, more or less. You know, I'm not exactly unique in believing that the early church fell into apostasy and that it did so early on. There were, after all, literally dozens of competing Christian groups as early as the end of the first century. Paul saw an apostasy happening in his day and his writings are full of warnings. He was talking about things that were going on at that time. He specifically said that Christ would not return until after both a "falling away" (an "apostasia") and a "restitution of all things" had taken place. I don't think it's at all difficult to believe that this is what happened. As a matter of fact, I think it was absolutely inevitable that it happened.
Hey, relax. Nobody said that. Any Christian who doesn't acknowledge the Catholic Church's hand in safeguarding the scriptures is nuts. I, for one, feel a tremendous debt of gratitude to the Catholic Church for preserving the Bible as well as it did. No, I don't think it's perfect, but I would never imply that it's "worthless and unreliable."
If you think that the Bible was created by one random Christian sect, then how can you rely on the traditions that were used to confirm which books would be in part of the Bible were indeed accurate and authentic Christian teaching. That's the catch-22 of all non-Catholic Christian denominations. Either the Catholic is the true Church whose traditions, values, and teachings helped create and assemble the right books of the Bible, or it's just another unauthoritive random Christian sect that put some books together whose creation cannot be relied upon because they have no Authority to do it properly. There are no other alternatives, except for the magical ones.
If you think that the Bible was created by one random Christian sect, then how can you rely on the traditions that were used to confirm which books would be in part of the Bible were indeed accurate and authentic Christian teaching. That's the catch-22 of all non-Catholic Christian denominations. Either the Catholic is the true Church whose traditions, values, and teachings helped create and assemble the right books of the Bible, or it's just another unauthoritive random Christian sect that put some books together whose creation cannot be relied upon because they have no Authority to do it properly.
Well, as I said before, I don't think the Bible is perfect. It's definitely not complete. Heck, we can find references to "books" and "epistles" in the Bible that are mentioned by name and that evidently were considered scripture at one time but which aren't in our Bibles today. Anybody who had studied the development of the Christian canon over the years knows better than to think it has always existed in the form in which we have it today. The canon of the 2nd century is vastly different than the canon of the 15th century. I look to the Bible as an important source of information as to what God has revealed to mankind and what He wants us to know. I don't stress out over what it's not.
Quote:
There are no other alternatives, except for the magical ones.
LOL. Well, I'm sure most people would agree with you about that.
I disagree. Paul could not have been much more clear about how the institutional Church was to be organized and to function in the Savior's absence. Here's what he said (from Ephesians 4:11-14):
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive...
If I were to try to explain in modern English what Paul was saying, I would say this:
And He (Jesus Christ) appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. His purpose in doing so was to perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. These were to remain in place until all of us are unified in the faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, enabling us to grow to maturity in the Lord. Otherwise, we will continue to be like children in the gospel, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who are crafty and who desire to deceive us.
It wasn't just the words of the Apostles that would be needed until the Savior's return. It was individuals who held the same authority as the original twelve did and who functioned as they functioned in directing the affairs of the Church. Paul clearly prophesied the confusion that would exist without functioning Apostles. And look what we have today... 30,000+ different denominations, all claiming to be right, all being unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines. It's exactly what he said would happen.
Well, as I said before, I don't think the Bible is perfect. It's definitely not complete. Heck, we can find references to "books" and "epistles" in the Bible that are mentioned by name and that evidently were considered scripture at one time but which aren't in our Bibles today. Anybody who had studied the development of the Christian canon over the years knows better than to think it has always existed in the form in which we have it today. The canon of the 2nd century is vastly different than the canon of the 15th century. I look to the Bible as an important source of information as to what God has revealed to mankind and what He wants us to know. I don't stress out over what it's not.
LOL. Well, I'm sure most people would agree with you about that.
So you don't think this verse applies?
Rev 22:18-19 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."
Rev 22:18-19 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."
You do realize Revelation was a LETTER. There was no "book" around at that time.
Luther, the guy that started the Protestant Reformation, didnt even want Revelation in the scriptures. Without Luther you would still be a part of the Catholic church.
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LOL! Well, juj, I'm glad you at least like me. A lot of people think my posts are "a pile of stuff" and don't like me besides! 
