Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle? (mystic, prophecy, Orthodox)
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And yet, you sought to dispute the Scriptures concerning Paul. As the Scriptures I mentioned show, Paul was a true apostle appointed by God. See post #230.
Jesus did not speak only of love.
And there are essential doctrines which must be defended against heresy. Truth takes precedence over unity. Unity at the expense of truth is evil.
I totally agree dude!!!
And attempting to have unity at the expense of truth only really brings division.
"In Acts, which was written by Luke, the Lord gave His endorsment of Paul."
You got that right written BY Luke, not Yahweh or the Holy spirit, but just Luke as he says himself in Luke 1:1-4 and without inspiration
Here is Peter's endorsment of Paul.
Not even one of the apostles got even a warning from Yahweh that He was sending a brand new "star" Apostle to revolutionize the movement and set the news laws of Christianity in motion and that ONE quote is the best you can do???
This last part is troubling to me also...and that is also why Paul's apostleship should be questioned. And contrary to indicating another apostle would come, Christ actually warned that many would come in his name.
Also troubling to me, is that Christ said the FIRST most important commandment was to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and THEN to love your neighbor as yourself.
But where in all of Paul's epistles...for all his words...did Paul ever say that we should "love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." ? It seems that Paul only mentions the second part, and never the first.
It only goes to further prove my point that we should be sure to interpret Paul through Christ, and not the other way around.
We certainly should interpret the words of Paul by the words of Christ whenever possible, but that does not change the fact that many things Paul wrote helps the reader to better understand and interpret the words of Christ.
Such as when Paul's speaks of how sin is literally in the members of the body, indeed that this body itself is a "body of death". This helps us understand what Christ meant when he spoke of cutting off the hand and plucking out the eye that offends. Christ was being parabolic when he said that, so Paul's explanation of sin itself being a part of our mortal flesh helps to understand what Christ was actually saying, which is basically that we would have to maim and kill ourselves ultimately in order to ever truly be free from sin and that we needed his work on our behalf to ever reconcile with God. That if we seek to achieve justification and righteousness by observing the law without fail we are in fact doomed to fail in spite of our efforts.(IMHO)
This last part is troubling to me also...and that is also why Paul's apostleship should be questioned. And contrary to indicating another apostle would come, Christ actually warned that many would come in his name.
Also troubling to me, is that Christ said the FIRST most important commandment was to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and THEN to love your neighbor as yourself.
But where in all of Paul's epistles...for all his words...did Paul ever say that we should "love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." ? It seems that Paul only mentions the second part, and never the first.
Where did any of the apostles give that command?
It seems to me that they were all saying the same thing (Paul, John) - that love for God, and God's love for us is in Christ and the Holy Spirit,
Joh_8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Rom_5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom_8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Co_8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Eph_3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph_5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
1Jn_3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn_4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn_4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn_4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn_4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
It seems to me that they were all saying the same thing (Paul, John) - that love for God, and God's love for us is in Christ and the Holy Spirit,
Joh_8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Rom_5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom_8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Co_8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Eph_3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph_5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
1Jn_3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn_4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn_4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn_4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn_4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
That's all great, but my beef is that Paul never says to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength as the primary commandment the way it is listed in Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Here is where one of the Apostles gives that command: Christ says it here through apostle Matthew in Matthew 22:37 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Paul tries to sum everything up in only one commandment (the second one Christ gave) where Paul says simply to love one another. That's my beef with it really.
Also troubling to me, is that Christ said the FIRST most important commandment was to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and THEN to love your neighbor as yourself.
But where in all of Paul's epistles...for all his words...did Paul ever say that we should "love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." ? It seems that Paul only mentions the second part, and never the first.
And there's the rub, because you quote the words of Christ found in the gospel of Luke, yet if Paul is a false apostle then Luke is out as well because he was Paul's disciple and right hand man, so no more gospel of Luke or books of acts. And it is nearly certain that 2nd Peter and James and Jude are all pseudepigraphical, and 1st Peter is suspect of the same thing and it also mentions Paul in a good light so it would have to go as well. Finally, what would be left of the new testament if you were to go down this road?
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-26-2011 at 04:54 PM..
And there's the rub, because you quote the words of Christ found in the gospel of Luke, yet if Paul is a false apostle then Luke is out as well because he was Paul's disciple and right hand man, so no more gospel of Luke or books of acts. And it is nearly certain that 2nd Peter and James and Jude are all pseudepigraphical, and 1st Peter is suspect of the same thing and it also mentions Paul in a good light so it would have to go as well. Finally, what would be left of the new testament if you were to go down this road?
Regarding Luke it's not a problem...because Matthew says it (who was an apostle) and so does Mark. So, no disrespect intended, but that logic doesn't fly really. It only serves to distract from the point which I made...which still stands.
There is also evidence that Luke copies from Mark...but that's for another debate.
And there is also some reason (considerable reason) to doubt that Luke actually did write Acts. I think it's time that people stop saying that if we take out Acts...that we take out Luke, and vice versa...because when you really look into it, many scholars don't feel that way.
And there's the rub, because you quote the words of Christ found in the gospel of Luke, yet if Paul is a false apostle then Luke is out as well because he was Paul's disciple and right hand man, so no more gospel of Luke or books of acts. And it is nearly certain that 2nd Peter and James and Jude are all pseudepigraphical, and 1st Peter is suspect of the same thing and it also mentions Paul in a good light so it would have to go as well. Finally, what would be left of the new testament if you were to go down this road?
Actually, 1 Peter is now universally accepted as canon. There was a time in history when it wasn't...as well as James, at one point.
2 Peter is still considered, after much scrutiny, to be likely a forgery, that was written sometime in the 2nd century.
Now, I am not doubting you at all...so forgive me for asking, but where in 1 Peter is Paul mentioned in a good light? I just want to know...so I can have my facts straight!
As far as what would be left of the New Testament...probably most of it. I want to make it clear that I am not trying to take hard sides, so much as really put this all to the test. I am still studying and learning daily!
We certainly should interpret the words of Paul by the words of Christ whenever possible, but that does not change the fact that many things Paul wrote helps the reader to better understand and interpret the words of Christ.
Such as when Paul's speaks of how sin is literally in the members of the body, indeed that this body itself is a "body of death". This helps us understand what Christ meant when he spoke of cutting off the hand and plucking out the eye that offends. Christ was being parabolic when he said that, so Paul's explanation of sin itself being a part of our mortal flesh helps to understand what Christ was actually saying, which is basically that we would have to maim and kill ourselves ultimately in order to ever truly be free from sin and that we needed his work on our behalf to ever reconcile with God. That if we seek to achieve justification and righteousness by observing the law without fail we are in fact doomed to fail in spite of our efforts.(IMHO)
I agree with absolutely everything you said...except for the very very last part about the Law. I don't see the Law as a curse, or that we are hopeless to ever perfect ourselves while trying to observe the Law.
That is another chicken and egg game like Faithvs. Works (when it really has to be both) and Christ's Spirit in us saving us through Grace vs. Observing The Law (when it really has to be both simultaneously).
That is where I, and many other Christians, disagree with the way that Paul expressed it.
I don't think Christ was saying we necessarily have to maim ourselves to ever be free from sin at all...but that it would be better to have no hand, than to end up in Gehenna. Christ even also said "Those who are not sick have no need of a doctor." It's a bit different.
And even if Paul and Christ are really saying the same thing regarding some of the other conflicts...my other beef would be that Paul communicated very poorly about certain matters. You see how clearly I write. Can you imagine my words causing so much confusion or ambiguity? Such ambiguity in words is what has tended to cause so much division. If Paul were so good at teaching..would it be possible for us and so many others, who above all love God and the Christian Faith, to be spending so much time in debate?
And even if Paul and Christ are really saying the same thing regarding some of the other conflicts...my other beef would be that Paul communicated very poorly about certain matters. You see how clearly I write. Can you imagine my words causing so much confusion or ambiguity? Such ambiguity in words is what has tended to cause so much division. If Paul were so good at teaching..would it be possible for us and so many others, who above all love God and the Christian Faith, to be spending so much time in debate?
The conflict and ambiguity arises from the false concept of God fostered by the OT and retained in trying to understand Christ's otherwise unambiguous life, death and teachings. When you start with the wrong understanding of God and His motives . . . you can't possibly reach correct conclusions from His Son's teachings and example. But the worst flaw in Christianity today is the focus on specific and detailed beliefs as the focus of faith. The ONLY faith necessary is the faith that Christ is the Son of God and He revealed the true nature of God by His life, death and teachings and the Good News is God is Love. Our only task is to Love God and each other because Christ saved us all from our weaknesses (sins).
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