Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle? (salvation, last supper, Jews)
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Love is God, you posted "To help you understand the magnitude of these words I bolded them. Paul clearly say WE According to the Lord's word. So this is a clear prophecy. Now whose WE. Again by reading it, it is quite clear We represent Paul, Silas, Timothy and the Brothers and Sisters of the church of The Thessalonians. So, by saying we who are still alive involves the FACT that some of them will be alive at the Parousia or else this becomes a false prophecy. If I was there at that time, heard those words, saw every member of my church dying as well as Paul, Silas and Timothy and I was the last one standing and about to die, I would understand that Paul lied, that his prophecy was untrue as WE are now all dead!!"
Paul was not prophesying. The Thessalonians and you yourself misunderstood what he was saying.
And there's no need for the condescending comments.
Now, here you hit the right spot! John is my real weakness, the favourite of Christ and also my own. As a funny side note, John is not about predicting the end or going to preach the gospel, but rather have a lot to do with Love. John 13: 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
At my first read through the NT it was the one epistle that did really moved me. The total opposite is true for Paul, my first impression was, he his not taking to me! When I read Romans 13 I understood who he was working for!
The aspect of Romans 13 that disturbs me is with respect to the "mark of the Beast" which comes at the end. How can we obey the government and God both at the same time when this comes? We can't. And the Beast will claim to be from, and of, God.
I can see how God is in command of everything in the BIG PICTURE sense. It even says in Exodus that God hardened Pharaoh's heart several times.
But when it comes to true loyalty to God the Father, we can't follow Paul on this one really.
If the passage is just about not being anarchist...so be it.
Love is God, you posted "To help you understand the magnitude of these words I bolded them. Paul clearly say WE According to the Lord's word. So this is a clear prophecy. Now whose WE. Again by reading it, it is quite clear We represent Paul, Silas, Timothy and the Brothers and Sisters of the church of The Thessalonians. So, by saying we who are still alive involves the FACT that some of them will be alive at the Parousia or else this becomes a false prophecy. If I was there at that time, heard those words, saw every member of my church dying as well as Paul, Silas and Timothy and I was the last one standing and about to die, I would understand that Paul lied, that his prophecy was untrue as WE are now all dead!!"
Paul was not prophesying. The Thessalonians and you yourself misunderstood what he was saying.
And there's no need for the condescending comments.
To you dear Saved33,
You do understand that Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "According to the Lord’s word" is not a reference to the bible but to the word received from the Lord Himself which revealed to him how things would be at the end... that does classify as a prophecy! As for the condescendence, I plead guilty of charge but how else can I bring you to think for yourself? When I read anything that bears a clear dedication like the one in Thessalonians, I know I can read it but I also know it wasn't meant for me! Just like anyone can read the post I'm sending here but it was written specially for you!!!
The aspect of Romans 13 that disturbs me is with respect to the "mark of the Beast" which comes at the end. How can we obey the government and God both at the same time when this comes? We can't. And the Beast will claim to be from, and of, God.
I can see how God is in command of everything in the BIG PICTURE sense. It even says in Exodus that God hardened Pharaoh's heart several times.
But when it comes to true loyalty to God the Father, we can't follow Paul on this one really.
If the passage is just about not being anarchist...so be it.
If God was in command it would completely contradict a God of Love, because assuming what says here as true would mean that every government on earth would be allowed by God Himself and that would include the lawfully established Nazi regimen... On the other hand we have the clear offer by Satan in Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
So, who does our world belong to??? Could Satan offer something he doesn’t own?
The more knowledge you have of the old testament and the Bible as a whole, the more you know there is nothing false about Paul. If you have concerns about this, I recommend checking out some commentary. Both Chuck Misser and Chuck Smith are pretty good at breaking this down.
The more knowledge you have of the old testament and the Bible as a whole, the more you know there is nothing false about Paul. If you have concerns about this, I recommend checking out some commentary. Both Chuck Misser and Chuck Smith are pretty good at breaking this down.
Now, now, that’s Enlightenment in its rawest form!!! The knowledge of the OT (the nightmare of every good Christians) confirms Paul (the almighty destructor of every single piece of the law!) but hey, if the commentary says so.... Or maybe you intended to have an audience with people very unfamiliar with the OT and that comment would give you some moral ground? Trying to reconcile the OT and the NT is in itself a work of tremendous faith... How to explain in a quick turn of event a jealous, vengeful, sacrifice demanding God, that almost wipe out the earth once with the all loving God sending his only son to earth to save us??? That's called nightmare 101 of Christianity!!! So do not even try for a minute to involve some mystical connection between the OT and Paul, not with people able to read!
If God was in command it would completely contradict a God of Love, because assuming what says here as true would mean that every government on earth would be allowed by God Himself and that would include the lawfully established Nazi regimen... On the other hand we have the clear offer by Satan in Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
So, who does our world belong to??? Could Satan offer something he doesn’t own?
I totally understand your reasoning on this, and I agree.
But God is in command of the BIG PICTURE. He has dominion over hell (according to scripture), and can, through his angels, bind and loose the Dragon as he ses fit (See Revelation on that one). There is a reason that God allows the evil age to come to fruition for a season. It is all part of the creation of greater glory. As Christ says "if you only love those who love you...where is your reward."
But yes, this is one of the reasons that I have problems with Paul's doctrines, so I agree with you on that!
Now, now, that’s Enlightenment in its rawest form!!! The knowledge of the OT (the nightmare of every good Christians) confirms Paul (the almighty destructor of every single piece of the law!) but hey, if the commentary says so.... Or maybe you intended to have an audience with people very unfamiliar with the OT and that comment would give you some moral ground? Trying to reconcile the OT and the NT is in itself a work of tremendous faith... How to explain in a quick turn of event a jealous, vengeful, sacrifice demanding God, that almost wipe out the earth once with the all loving God sending his only son to earth to save us??? That's called nightmare 101 of Christianity!!! So do not even try for a minute to involve some mystical connection between the OT and Paul, not with people able to read!
Interesting post.
There is one thing worth mentioning about the OT though, and that's the High Priest Melchisidek...who didn't sacrifice animals. This was pre-Levitical and pre-Aaronite priesthood. So I think we need to make a delineation between the two parts of the OT. Melchisidek had a connection to Abraham...and the OT scriptures refer to him as a True Son of God. Once this form of priesthood was lost (and we can largely blame the Egyptians and their practices for this), it was necessary for someone to come back and restore it...i.e Christ.
A lot of people don't even know who Melchisidek was (often spelled Melchisidec), but understanding him is crucial to understanding the whole story.
Here is a copy of something I posted in a different thread on ther subject:
Regarding Melchisidek, it is mentioned in Hebrews 7:1-10 about Melcihidek's connection to Abraham, and that he was a High Priest. It says in Heb 7:3 that Melchisidek was "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."
A little earlier, in Hebrews 6:20 it compares Jesus (Messiah) to him, saying "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek." Hebrews 5:6 reads similarly.
(NOTE: sometimes it is spelled as Melchisidec). It is a Hebrew word that means "righteous priest king" !
Regarding the Aaronite Priesthood...it seems that the influence of the Egyptians was at least in part responsible for the tradition of animal sacrifices. There are some Egyptian names that appear in Levitical and Aaronite genealogies..but I would have to study a lot more to really be certain how it happened. It was most likely during the years that the Israelites were in Egypt.
The Melchisidek Priesthood was the True Priesthood, and Christ came to give that Gift back to Israel, and then to the entire world.
So the point I'm trying to make here, is that I don't think we can throw out the entire OT and its writings, because it wasn't all in error. There were also OT prophecies that supposedly predicted Christ's coming...so we need to be able to sort all that out. Were there OT prophets who seemed to get the prophecies right, who were also seeming to give a wrong impression of who God was? Or were the true prophets actually the ones that were getting it right in most ways?
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 08-30-2011 at 07:31 AM..
Please read the complete context in which it is written, it's because of people like you that the Bible is so misunderstood. If Paul intended to speak about us, he would have used THEY who will be alive but here is a clear WE and in a letter written not for us but to the Thessalonians!!! Sorry if that bursts your bubble!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Is God
So if that Parousia was meant for a far away future, it is certainly not the way the Thessalonians understood it which lead Paul to write in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."
All those writing were meant for them at that time in history. That's why is not saying it will happend tomorrow we all will be alive but rather those of us who are still alive which means a period which could be quite a long time up to around 50 years more or less. This is why some would die others still be alive. Context is everything!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Is God
Instead of trying to convince yourself with commentaries written by those who submit you, try to think for yourself, it's quite an amazing feeling to be able to read and unsterdand on your own!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Is God
To you dear Saved33,
You do understand that Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "According to the Lord’s word" is not a reference to the bible but to the word received from the Lord Himself which revealed to him how things would be at the end... that does classify as a prophecy! As for the condescendence, I plead guilty of charge but how else can I bring you to think for yourself? When I read anything that bears a clear dedication like the one in Thessalonians, I know I can read it but I also know it wasn't meant for me! Just like anyone can read the post I'm sending here but it was written specially for you!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Is God
Now, now, that’s Enlightenment in its rawest form!!! The knowledge of the OT (the nightmare of every good Christians) confirms Paul (the almighty destructor of every single piece of the law!) but hey, if the commentary says so.... Or maybe you intended to have an audience with people very unfamiliar with the OT and that comment would give you some moral ground? Trying to reconcile the OT and the NT is in itself a work of tremendous faith... How to explain in a quick turn of event a jealous, vengeful, sacrifice demanding God, that almost wipe out the earth once with the all loving God sending his only son to earth to save us??? That's called nightmare 101 of Christianity!!! So do not even try for a minute to involve some mystical connection between the OT and Paul, not with people able to read!
Ah, I see your new to the Christianity fourm, 25 post since July, hmmmm, isn't the threads title..... "Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle?"
I don't recall the title of the thread including..... "Come on in and cyber bully people around."
..... Ya know there is a way to have a conversation/debate with people that we may disagree with, without being so nasty and belittling which is really uncalled for !!
Oh, yeah, it might be a good idea to drop the username... "Love is God".... it just doesn't quite fit the attitude..... !!!
P.S. you might also think about a spell checker for your future posting !!!
Ah, I see your new to the Christianity fourm, 25 post since July, hmmmm, isn't the threads title..... "Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle?"
I don't recall the title of the thread including..... "Come on in and cyber bully people around."
..... Ya know there is a way to have a conversation/debate with people that we may disagree with, without being so nasty and belittling which is really uncalled for !!
Oh, yeah, it might be a good idea to drop the username... "Love is God".... it just doesn't quite fit the attitude..... !!!
P.S. you might also think about a spell checker for your future posting !!!
The irony of you calling someone out for cyber bullying is beyond the pale. Love-is-God is arguing the topic directly and presenting what are deemed mistaken reasoning and understanding. That is not bullying. This post is bullying . . . including screen name criticism and spelling mention in an attempt to silence someone who disagrees with you.
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"According to the Lord’s word"
hmmmm, isn't the threads title..... "Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle?"
!! 
