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Actually, when you really look into it, no-one really knows for sure who wrote the book of Acts.
I have yet to process this thread, as I've just found it today, but I have already been on to the fact that the Book of Acts may be a complete forgery.
Thanks for checking it out TW, If the book of Acts is a possible forgery as you suspect, then any of the other books could also be forgeries, and at the end of the day, I have to believe the Bible is the word of God just how it is.
Thanks for checking it out TW, If the book of Acts is a possible forgery as you suspect, then any of the other books could also be forgeries, and at the end of the day, I have to believe the Bible is the word of God just how it is.
That's convenient ... but I don't think it is either realistic or honest. Yet I understand the perceived need of fundamentalists to protect and preserve the traditions that they are entrinched in, lest they lose their resolve and the cracks in the foundation of their beliefs become to exposed to the light of truth.
Thanks for checking it out TW, If the book of Acts is a possible forgery as you suspect, then any of the other books could also be forgeries, and at the end of the day, I have to believe the Bible is the word of God just how it is.
There are many people who share your viewpoint, and I can respect that viewpoint, becaue it is one that I used to have myself. But when you look into it, it is actually possible to prove various things...such as the fact that Paul didn't write Hebrews, but he is credited as doing so. So why even mislead people about that? Well...when you look into it you begin to see why.
And it IS in fact possible to know which books are very suspect, and which are definitely divine...but most people are too lazy to look into that.
Just about all scholars agree that 2 Peter is a forgery also. And these are scholars who actually care about the Bible.
I wouldn't see a problem, if Paul's theology didn't differ from Christ's in so many areas. So at the "End of the day" I stick with Christ. You can't go wrong there. And just because Acts could be a forgery, does not at all mean that they all could be forgeries. There are certain books that we know are valid..but anything that contradicts itself, or contradicts Christ, the way Acts does...is very suspect. But at the end of the day...you have to follow the Spirit within to reveal these things to you. Many Christians neglect that inner voice...and only trust what people tell them. Don't trust me either...but God will reveal the answers to you. It could very well be that you yourself don't need to worry about Acts, or the validity of certain books. But just take my advice and follow CHRIST in particular and not so much Paul.
Regarding the Gospel...how about the fact that 16 lines were added to Mark that were never in the oldest versions that we have? Is that a problem or not? Something for a separate thread perhaps.
And which Bible should we refer to which is the ttrue Word of God? There are so many versions with different books included and excluded. IT couldn';t all be the work of the Spirit. There is definitely something trying to tamper wih The Truth. How about the Ethiopian Bible for instance?
Shun is a stronger word than i believe Paul intended. I don't believe the idea is to shun a person as much as it is to not regularly keep their company.
Fair enough. That could be true. I know there is a version out there though that uses the word "shun" which is why I used it! I'll try to find that for you!!!
Still, if Paul was really chosen by God as some great communicator..why state something that even seems so contradictory to what Christ said? Why even open up that chasm? Christ spent time with sinners in order to help and heal them. Either way you look at it...Paul is (for the ages) sending a different message to people. I could have made it much clearer myself (lots of people could have!)...and I would have re-iterated Christ's words about saving sinners in that same context. We are talking about the most serious matter there is...the human soul. Why leave such a margin of error?
Well...if 2 Peter is in fact a forgery like virtually all scholars believe...then we might have a problem.
And if Acts is contradictory to itself and to Christ...we have a huge problem. (And how do we resolve the fact that Acts tries to tell Chrisitans that they CANT cast out demons when Christ said that ALL EVIL would be subject to our power?)
And, yet, Thomas was allowed to doubt (after spending 3 years seeing Jesus perform all kinds of miracles) and Jesus was very comprehensive...
John 20:25-27
So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!†But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.†A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!†Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.â€
As you can read here, no big drama, no screaming no kicking! Jesus didn't say:"How can you lack faith after all you've seen and the word of your brothers is worth nothing to you! Go to hell you faithless jew!" No, just a simple: “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.â€
So maybe Jesus understood it was not all about faith, and that Thomas was a good person, regardless of is lack of faith and that's why he didn't send him away. Nonetheless, today we are ask to believe in something that to any intelligent person born outside the christian faith, is very much a fairy tale. If the original text of the bible would have been miracouslously preserved that might have given an argument.... but copies of copies of copies.... could it be considered normal to doubt?
All very interesting!!
It is worth noting that Thomas' Gospel was excluded, so it seems like he didn't "Get it" either. I have looked at that Gospel..and to me, its horrendous.
Fair enough. That could be true. I know there is a version out there though that uses the word "shun" which is why I used it! I'll try to find that for you!!!
Still, if Paul was really chosen by God as some great communicator..why state something that even seems so contradictory to what Christ said? Why even open up that chasm? Christ spent time with sinners in order to help and heal them. Either way you look at it...Paul is (for the ages) sending a different message to people. I could have made it much clearer myself (lots of people could have!)...and I would have re-iterated Christ's words about saving sinners in that same context. We are talking about the most serious matter there is...the human soul. Why leave such a margin of error?
Well i don't believe that saving souls is even an issue. That is Gods department not mans. I do understand what you are saying, but i think Paul was specifically dealing with the community of believers, or people who claimed to be believers.
Again, i am not one to take every word of the scriptures as being absolutely divinely inspired, and Paul even admitted that some of what he wrote was his own reasoning and not inspired. He was a man, a man who made mistakes and a man who had obvious issues with pride and religious tradition. That doesn't mean he was a false apostle. As a matter of fact when you look past his weaknesses and his writings dealing with administration of the communities you will see that he had a very sound understanding of spiritual truth.
Also, the simple truth is that whether you agree with him or not, and whether you like it or not, Paul was a genius, or maybe more accurately he was possessed of genius.
Well i don't believe that saving souls is even an issue. That is Gods department not mans. I do understand what you are saying, but i think Paul was specifically dealing with the community of believers, or people who claimed to be believers.
Again, i am not one to take every word of the scriptures as being absolutely divinely inspired, and Paul even admitted that some of what he wrote was his own reasoning and not inspired. He was a man, a man who made mistakes and a man who had obvious issues with pride and religious tradition. That doesn't mean he was a false apostle. As a matter of fact when you look past his weaknesses and his writings dealing with administration of the communities you will see that he had a very sound understanding of spiritual truth.
Also, the simple truth is that whether you agree with him or not, and whether you like it or not, Paul was a genius, or maybe more accurately he was possessed of genius.
I appreciate your post...a lot. And you are right...whether I agree with him or not...Paul was in many ways brilliant, if not a kind of genius.
But I disagree on one point...but it's not so much that I'm disagreeing with you, because I actually think you have the right viewpoint. I just think that to most people who read Paul's work...saving souls is definitely the issue...and they in fact do see Paul's letters as divinely inspired, and that's the problem. Many of them actually put Paul's words on par with Christ. But I don't think it was necessarily Paul's own doing that it was all elevated to this level.
And Paul's entire impetus for preaching to believers was to keep them spiritually on the right track. I do think he meant well. And I do believe that it is truly God's (and Christ's work) as you have said, to save souls. It only goes to further prove my point that we should be sure to interpret Paul through Christ, and not the other way around.
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 08-26-2011 at 02:33 PM..
AISI
In this passage, Luke is giving an actual account of what transpired on the road to Damascus.
Here...Luke is giving an unbiased account of how "Paul related his experience" to the "Hebrew" speaking crowd while claiming to be a Hebrew himself.
Ditto: Paul's account of his experience to Agrippa, adding that...he too, lived as a Pharisee.
Luke's overall account did not vary at all...he was just recording everything that transpired...how it happened, and how Paul had subsequently embellished the story.
Because of the seeming discrepancy in the three accounts...I had to read it in the same manner as I would read a detective story.
Why would "The Christ" change his mind and appoint someone else (not among the disciples) after Matthew 16:17-19 and commanding Peter to feed his sheep? John 21:15-17
Lastly...the main prerequisite of becoming an apostle (teacher) is that, he has to be one of the 120 disciples (students under the tutelage of Jesus. Acts 1:15) Acts 1:21-22.
We also have the compelling verse in Revelation 21:14, where it reads: "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb"
It doesn't mention a 13th apostle named Paul. lol
In truth...no one knows who really wrote Acts. It is most likey Luke, but it is not conclusive. It is common opinion that it is Luke. Also the author of Acts does not give us his name.
Shun is a stronger word than i believe Paul intended. I don't believe the idea is to shun a person as much as it is to not regularly keep their company.
If you do a Google search on "Shun every brother" (with the quotes included) you will see the versions that come up which use this wording.
Some of these versions use the word "Evil" instead of "disorderly" however, which would make more sense.
I would agree to avoid evil people in the same way that Jesus warned to not "cast pearls before swine" so in this case...we would have to go back to the original Greek (I presume) and see what word it really should be translated to.
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And you are right...whether I agree with him or not...Paul was in many ways brilliant, if not a kind of genius. 
