Was Paul a self proclaimed/false Apostle? (exodus, Old Testament, recall)
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Just a little parenthesis before coming back to Paul; I'm sorry to say that "loving Mark" is a big statement in the light of the very little original content which is only 3% and a very contradicted ending. Here is a nice lecture on those two subjects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16
Now back to the main subject, while re-reading Paul this week it hit me... a false prophet can certainly be recognized by his false prophecies, right? Let me bring your attention to 1 Thessalonians. First Paul writes the introduction which reads as follow:
Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you.
Ok, in a clear statement Paul says he, Silas and Timothy are writing to the church of Thessalonians. Clear and easy to understand.
Next, in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
To help you understand the magnitude of these words I bolded them. Paul clearly say WE According to the Lord's word. So this is a clear prophecy. Now whose WE. Again by reading it, it is quite clear We represent Paul, Silas, Timothy and the Brothers and Sisters of the church of The Thessalonians. So, by saying we who are still alive involves the FACT that some of them will be alive at the Parousia or else this becomes a false prophecy. If I was there at that time, heard those words, saw every member of my church dying as well as Paul, Silas and Timothy and I was the last one standing and about to die, I would understand that Paul lied, that his prophecy was untrue as WE are now all dead!!!
Matthew 11:15 He who has ears, let him hear.
Thanks for the post on Paul. It is all being taken into consideration!
I am actually not interested in debating that topic here any further for the moment, though. And though I have some issues with Paul...I still like a lot of the things he said...and now that I think about it..I actually have some issues with The Law...and on the question of the OT regarding both that and OT prophecy. I started a new thread if you want to chime in on that.
"We who are still alive" means you, me, and every other believer that is 'still alive' when Christ comes to claim His people.
Mark 13:33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.
Please read the complete context in which it is written, it's because of people like you that the Bible is so misunderstood. If Paul intended to speak about us, he would have used THEY who will be alive but here is a clear WE and in a letter written not for us but to the Thessalonians!!! Sorry if that bursts your bubble!
Then we which are alive - Those who shall then be alive; see 1 Thessalonians 4:15. The word here rendered "then" (ἔπειτα epeita), does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means "afterward, next, next in the order of events;" Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14. There may be a considerable interval between the resurrection of the pious and the time when the living shall be caught up to meet the Lord, for the change is to take place in them which will fit them to ascend with those who have been raised. The meaning is, that after the dead are raised, or the next thing in order, they and the living will ascend to meet the Lord. The proper meaning of the word, however, denotes a succession so close as to exclude the idea of a long interval in which other important transactions would occur, such an interval, for example, as would be involved in a long personal reign of the Redeemer on earth. The word demands this interpretation - that the next thing in order after the resurrection of the righteous, will be their being caught up with the living, with an appropriate change, into the air - though, as has been remarked, it will admit of the supposition of such a brief, momentary interval ἐν ἄτομος ἐν ῥιπη ὀφθαλμου en atomos en rhipē ophthalmou, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52) as shall be necessary to prepare for it.
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It's people like you that like to turn the Bible into something that it isn't.
I was in fact already aware of the 16 lines in Mark that were apparently added. (I am actually currently reading the book "Misquoting Jesus" just so I can better understand the history). It doesn't stop me from appreciating the rest of that book. It might have in fact been the first Gospel written..(as the link to the article you posted shows) and Matthew and Luke may have in fact copied from Mark...and so the 3% is not really indiciative of ORIGINAL CONTENT as you have implied, but rather UNIQUE CONTENT, which is what that page actually says. They are two totally different things. Saying it has only 3% of ORIGINAL CONTENT implies that Mark copied from the other Gospels...when in fact it was most likely the other way around!
You are perfectly right, sorry about the wrong wording choice . What I meant to say was that I usually skip Mark during my re-readings because of the redundancy not per se the not original content... sorry about the confusion!
Then we which are alive - Those who shall then be alive; see 1 Thessalonians 4:15. The word here rendered "then" (ἔπειτα epeita), does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means "afterward, next, next in the order of events;" Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14. There may be a considerable interval between the resurrection of the pious and the time when the living shall be caught up to meet the Lord, for the change is to take place in them which will fit them to ascend with those who have been raised. The meaning is, that after the dead are raised, or the next thing in order, they and the living will ascend to meet the Lord. The proper meaning of the word, however, denotes a succession so close as to exclude the idea of a long interval in which other important transactions would occur, such an interval, for example, as would be involved in a long personal reign of the Redeemer on earth. The word demands this interpretation - that the next thing in order after the resurrection of the righteous, will be their being caught up with the living, with an appropriate change, into the air - though, as has been remarked, it will admit of the supposition of such a brief, momentary interval ἐν ἄτομος ἐν ῥιπη ὀφθαλμου en atomos en rhipē ophthalmou, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52) as shall be necessary to prepare for it.
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I see you got that from the Biblos.com site. I happen to really like that site!
You are perfectly right, sorry about the wrong wording choice . What I meant to say was that I usually skip Mark during my re-readings because of the redundancy not per se the not original content... sorry about the confusion!
Gotcha!
I happen to really like that little chart on that page by the way! I've been looking for something like that.
I still need to re-read the Gospel of John all the way through again myself...and his letters.
Then we which are alive - Those who shall then be alive; see 1 Thessalonians 4:15. The word here rendered "then" (ἔπειτα epeita), does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means "afterward, next, next in the order of events;" Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14. There may be a considerable interval between the resurrection of the pious and the time when the living shall be caught up to meet the Lord, for the change is to take place in them which will fit them to ascend with those who have been raised. The meaning is, that after the dead are raised, or the next thing in order, they and the living will ascend to meet the Lord. The proper meaning of the word, however, denotes a succession so close as to exclude the idea of a long interval in which other important transactions would occur, such an interval, for example, as would be involved in a long personal reign of the Redeemer on earth. The word demands this interpretation - that the next thing in order after the resurrection of the righteous, will be their being caught up with the living, with an appropriate change, into the air - though, as has been remarked, it will admit of the supposition of such a brief, momentary interval ἐν ἄτομος ἐν ῥιπη ὀφθαλμου en atomos en rhipē ophthalmou, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52) as shall be necessary to prepare for it.
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It's people like you that like to turn the Bible into something that it isn't.
So if that Parousia was meant for a far away future, it is certainly not the way the Thessalonians understood it which lead Paul to write in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."
All those writing were meant for them at that time in history. That's why is not saying it will happend tomorrow we all will be alive but rather those of us who are still alive which means a period which could be quite a long time up to around 50 years more or less. This is why some would die others still be alive. Context is everything!!!
We which are alive, and remain - By the pronoun we the apostle does not intend himself, and the Thessalonians to whom he was then writing; he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment. From not considering the manner in which the apostle uses this word, some have been led to suppose that he imagined that the day of judgment would take place in that generation, and while he and the then believers at Thessalonica were in life. But it is impossible that a man, under so direct an influence of the Holy Spirit, should be permitted to make such a mistake: nay, no man in the exercise of his sober reason could have formed such an opinion; there was nothing to warrant the supposition; no premises from which it could be fairly deduced; nor indeed any thing in the circumstances of the Church, nor in the constitution of the world, that could have suggested a hint of the kind. The apostle is speaking of the thing indefinitely as to the time when it shall happen, but positively as to the Order that shall be then observed.
I happen to really like that little chart on that page by the way! I've been looking for something like that.
I still need to re-read the Gospel of John all the way through again myself...and his letters.
Now, here you hit the right spot! John is my real weakness, the favourite of Christ and also my own. As a funny side note, John is not about predicting the end or going to preach the gospel, but rather have a lot to do with Love. John 13: 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
At my first read through the NT it was the one epistle that did really moved me. The total opposite is true for Paul, my first impression was, he his not taking to me! When I read Romans 13 I understood who he was working for!
We which are alive, and remain - By the pronoun we the apostle does not intend himself, and the Thessalonians to whom he was then writing; he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment. From not considering the manner in which the apostle uses this word, some have been led to suppose that he imagined that the day of judgment would take place in that generation, and while he and the then believers at Thessalonica were in life. But it is impossible that a man, under so direct an influence of the Holy Spirit, should be permitted to make such a mistake: nay, no man in the exercise of his sober reason could have formed such an opinion; there was nothing to warrant the supposition; no premises from which it could be fairly deduced; nor indeed any thing in the circumstances of the Church, nor in the constitution of the world, that could have suggested a hint of the kind. The apostle is speaking of the thing indefinitely as to the time when it shall happen, but positively as to the Order that shall be then observed.
Instead of trying to convince yourself with commentaries written by those who submit you, try to think for yourself, it's quite an amazing feeling to be able to read and unsterdand on your own!
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Worst thing you can do...
. What I meant to say was that I usually skip Mark during my re-readings because of the redundancy not per se the not original content... sorry about the confusion!
