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"Jesus Christ is a potential Saviour (not actual). " -the religious parrot
Hold your head up high drowning one, everything depends on you, you, you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
Now, Jesus is indeed the Saviour of all men...
His death is sufficient to pay the price for every human being who ever lived or who ever will live...
However, it should be clear that the scripture teaches that we are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9)...
And that we do not have access into this grace wherein we stand apart from faith (Romans 5:1-2)...
Therefore, if someone doesn't have faith, they do not have access to grace...
And therefore they are also not saved.
Jesus died for all of us...
However we are not saved unless or until we appropriate the blood that was shed for us through faith in what He did for us.
Just as Jesus is the Lord of all men; both of the dead (those who have not received Him as Saviour and Lord) and the living (those who have been born again of the Holy Spirit); and yet not all are submitted to His Lordship;
(see Romans 14:9)
Even so, Jesus is the Saviour of all men; and yet not all avail themselves of the salvation that He offers to them.
Indeed, if justbyfaith had been actually trying to study, read, and understand, he would already know the answer to that question because it's already been discussed and explained, many times.
But in the mind of an eternal torture believer there is such a cognitive dissonance; they must reject anything that might remotely challenge their belief, lest they themselves end up in the mythical eternal hell they believe in. It is a kind of insanity. Its because of this that justbyfaith CANNOT allow himself to study, read, and understand. In his mind he risks his eternal security if he has one doubt over the existence of hell. It is very sad.
As to your counterpoint pcamps, people only go to hell by rejecting Jesus - implying it is not the responsibility of God; to address this we can reframe the question:
Would a good God purpose a creation where He would be 'forced to allow' 99% of souls to be tormented forever - thus suffering would never end? (lol God being 'forced to allow') God is sovereign and foreknowing; so if He purposed creation, knowing that 99% of His very creation would reject Him in order to perpetuate sin and suffering forever - would this be a good creation?
WE KNOW God is Good. "And it was very good". God created for good reasons. justbyfaith and others present a picture where God's creation has run amok, and unfortunately God must allow 99% of His creation to suffer forever. That is decidedly NOT GOOD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
The Bible does teach that sin came upon the entire human race when Adam and Eve fell by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
So, you appear to be promoting an unbiblical religion.
I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm proposing a question to see if we can understand something about God's purpose and goodness.
Do you think God didn't know that Adam & Eve would fall? Do you think God was caught off guard by their sin?
So let us reframe the question again. Would it be good if God created His creation knowing most would be tormented for eternity because Adam & Eve fell?
I can answer this as its still the same question. It is not good as suffering continues forever.
Unless you think God didn't know what He was doing... then that is an entirely different debate.
It should be clear that as the result of God's judgment, some will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15); and that experience is defined by Revelation 20:10; also by a combination of Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46 (kjv).
I believe that justice and judgment is a good thing.
It is just to keep a person confined to hell until they have paid the very last penny of what they owe.
Since, if the sin nature is never dealt with, they will never pay the last penny (because they will keep sinning and thus adding to what they owe),
I believe that it is just for those whose sin nature will never be dealt with to be confined to a place where they will all be lumped together for all of eternity.
I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm proposing a question to see if we can understand something about God's purpose and goodness.
Do you think God didn't know that Adam & Eve would fall? Do you think God was caught off guard by their sin?
So let us reframe the question again. Would it be good if God created His creation knowing most would be tormented for eternity because Adam & Eve fell?
I can answer this as its still the same question. It is not good as suffering continues forever.
Unless you think God didn't know what He was doing... then that is an entirely different debate.
I think that you are attempting to contend for the idea that the God of the Bible isn't good.
I consider this to be a foolish line of thinking.
And the Bible says,
2Ti 2:23, But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
Tit 3:9, But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
I believe that justice and judgment is a good thing.
It is just to keep a person confined to hell until they have paid the very last penny of what they owe.
Since, if the sin nature is never dealt with, they will never pay the last penny (because they will keep sinning and thus adding to what they owe),
I believe that it is just for those whose sin nature will never be dealt with to be confined to a place where they will all be lumped together for all of eternity.
A infinite punishment for a finite crime, this is your justice? Like getting a life sentence for a speeding ticket.
In regard to them that keep sinning...it is impossible to sin outside the flesh according to scripture. How do they continue to sin after they die????
I believe that justice and judgment is a good thing.
It is just to keep a person confined to hell until they have paid the very last penny of what they owe.
Since, if the sin nature is never dealt with, they will never pay the last penny (because they will keep sinning and thus adding to what they owe),
I believe that it is just for those whose sin nature will never be dealt with to be confined to a place where they will all be lumped together for all of eternity.
The question was "do you think eternal torture is a good thing?" You didn't answer because you cannot say it is a good thing.
A infinite punishment for a finite crime, this is your justice? Like getting a life sentence for a speeding ticket.
In regard to them that keep sinning...it is impossible to sin outside the flesh according to scripture. How do they continue to sin after they die????
That is untrue. There is a filthiness of spirit according to 2 Corinthians 7:1.
The idea that sin is only in the flesh is a gnostic belief to say the least.
The question was "do you think eternal torture is a good thing?" You didn't answer because you cannot say it is a good thing.
What did I imply with my statements?
I simply chose to put my opinion in words that are more acceptable to the human palate.
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