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or maybe they do and it is your understanding that is in error. It is pretty plain that they are saying sin will not be eternal.
What's "pretty plain" is that you and Rose are interpreting those quotes double-filtered; both through the framework of a Protestant milieu and under a universalist lens.
Your errors are being compounded by the fact that you are so heavily influenced by both.
Or maybe it's pneuma's understanding that's in error?
lol lets just take a few of those quotes and look at them.
Irenaeus: (130 to about 200 A.D.)“Bishop of Lyons.”
His nearness to the apostles makes his testimony most interesting. Irenaeus did not believe evil would last forever. In his treatise Against Heretics, he wrote in Book III, chap. 23, §6:”1) Wherefore also He drove him (Adam) out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare to assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not continue always a sinner, and that the sin which surrounded him should not be immortal, and the evil interminable and irremediable.—Irenaeus.
Very clearly say that this was done so that sin should not be immortal.
Thus he is saying your belief in sin being eternal is heresy.
Clement of Alexandria, (190 A.D.) “Head of the catechetical school there.
He speaks of having learned from a disciple of the Apostles.—Strom. lib. ii. His wide and various learning, and his sympathetic spirit combine to give special weight to his teaching.”
All men are Christ’s, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some (only) and of the rest not (i.e., He is actually Savior of all) for how is He Lord and Savior if He is not Lord and Savior of all? But He is indeed Savior of those who believe…while of those who do not believe He is Lord, until having become able to confess Him, they obtain through Him the benefit appropriate and suitable (to their case). He by the Father’s will directs the salvation of all for all things have been ordered, both universally and in part, by the Lord of the universe; with a view to the salvation of the universe…But needful correction, by the goodness of the great overseeing Judge, through (by means of) the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final (pantelous) judgment, compels even those who have become still more callous to repent.—Clement. Strom. lib. vii. pp. 702-6, Cologne, 1688.
He clearly say that in the final judgement even the most callous shall repent. He is speaking of the salvation of all.
Origen, (185-254 A.D.)
“Pupil and successor of Clement of Alexandria, founded a school at Caesarea…the greatest theologian and exegete of the Eastern Church.” But he that despises the purification of the word of God and the doctrine of the Gospel only keeps himself for dreadful and penal purifications afterward; that so the fire of hell may purge him in torments whom neither apostolical doctrine nor gospel preaching has cleansed, according to that which is written of being “purified by fire.” But how long this purification which is wrought out by penal fire shall endure, or for how many periods or ages it shall torment sinners, He only knows to whom all judgment is committed by the Father.—Origen. Commentary on Rom., Book 8, Chap. 11.
clearly say the fires of hell are for purification of an unknown period.
So it is obvious to everyone yours and mike understanding of what those quotes say is in error.
What's "pretty plain" is that you and Rose are interpreting those quotes double-filtered; both through the framework of a Protestant milieu and under a universalist lens.
Your errors are being compounded by the fact that you are so heavily influenced by both.
just read the quotes mike because according to Irenaeus your view is heresy.
What's "pretty plain" is that you and Rose are interpreting those quotes double-filtered; both through the framework of a Protestant milieu and under a universalist lens.
Your errors are being compounded by the fact that you are so heavily influenced by both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
just read the quotes mike because according to Irenaeus your view is heresy.
Thus you read them through a heretical lens.
also of note is I have already given you the info showing for the first 500 years of the church universalism was taught. You have obviously refused to look at that information.
Irenaeus: (130 to about 200 A.D.)“Bishop of Lyons.”
His nearness to the apostles makes his testimony most interesting. Irenaeus did not believe evil would last forever. In his treatise Against Heretics, he wrote in Book III, chap. 23, §6:”1) Wherefore also He drove him (Adam) out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare to assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not continue always a sinner, and that the sin which surrounded him should not be immortal, and the evil interminable and irremediable.—Irenaeus.
Very clearly say that this was done so that sin should not be immortal.
Thus he is saying your belief in sin being eternal is heresy.
Pretty crazy that you get a universal salvation conclusion out of that quote, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Clement of Alexandria, (190 A.D.) “Head of the catechetical school there.
He speaks of having learned from a disciple of the Apostles.—Strom. lib. ii. His wide and various learning, and his sympathetic spirit combine to give special weight to his teaching.”
All men are Christ’s, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some (only) and of the rest not (i.e., He is actually Savior of all) for how is He Lord and Savior if He is not Lord and Savior of all? But He is indeed Savior of those who believe…while of those who do not believe He is Lord, until having become able to confess Him, they obtain through Him the benefit appropriate and suitable (to their case). He by the Father’s will directs the salvation of all for all things have been ordered, both universally and in part, by the Lord of the universe; with a view to the salvation of the universe…But needful correction, by the goodness of the great overseeing Judge, through (by means of) the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final (pantelous) judgment, compels even those who have become still more callous to repent.—Clement. Strom. lib. vii. pp. 702-6, Cologne, 1688.
He clearly say that in the final judgement even the most callous shall repent. He is speaking of the salvation of all.
You would only conclude the bolded if you were already predisposed to that belief.
Pretty crazy that you get a universal salvation conclusion out of that quote, IMO.
I never mentioned the salvation of all when I quoted Irenaeus. My point was clearly to show that your belief in eternal sin was heresy. Here is my quote
Very clearly say that this was done so that sin should not be immortal.
Thus he is saying your belief in sin being eternal is heresy.
Quote:
You would only conclude the bolded if you were already predisposed to that belief.
I think you are reflecting your predisposed belief onto what he said. lets look at it again.
through the final (pantelous) judgment, compels even those who have become still more callous to repent.
The final judgment compels even the most callous to repent.
And I noticed you did not even touch the Origin quote.
also of note is I have already given you the info showing for the first 500 years of the church universalism was taught. You have obviously refused to look at that information.
Your universalist author of that link is not trustworthy. He takes quotes out of context in order to fit his agenda.
Let's take the Irenaeus quote from above in its entirety:
"Wherefore also He drove him out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some venture to assert, but because He pitied him, [and did not desire] that he should continue a sinner for ever, nor that the sin which surrounded him should be immortal, and evil interminable and irremediable. But He set a bound to his [state of] sin, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease, (Romans 6:7) putting an end to it by the dissolution of the flesh, which should take place in the earth, so that man, ceasing at length to live to sin, and dying to it, might begin to live to God."
I never mentioned the salvation of all when I quoted Irenaeus. My point was clearly to show that your belief in eternal sin was heresy. Here is my quote
Very clearly say that this was done so that sin should not be immortal.
Thus he is saying your belief in sin being eternal is heresy.
I don't necessarily believe in "eternal sin". I would require that term to be qualified before I could make a statement on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
And I noticed you did not even touch the Origin quote.
No point. Origen's views on this topic were formally condemned by the Church.
Your universalist author of that link is not trustworthy. He takes quotes out of context in order to fit his agenda.
Let's take the Irenaeus quote from above in its entirety:
"Wherefore also He drove him out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some venture to assert, but because He pitied him, [and did not desire] that he should continue a sinner for ever, nor that the sin which surrounded him should be immortal, and evil interminable and irremediable. But He set a bound to his [state of] sin, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease, (Romans 6:7) putting an end to it by the dissolution of the flesh, which should take place in the earth, so that man, ceasing at length to live to sin, and dying to it, might begin to live to God."
and like I said mike my quote of Irenaeus was not about universal salvation it was about your error that sin is eternal. which obviously Irenaeus is saying is heresy.
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