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If you don't care to believe what is written, is not for me to convince. Those that are damned will thrown into a "fiery furnace" Matthew 13:42, and
Luke 17:28-30 It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Eusebius' reply:
Hi twin, this is my first post here. BTW, I am a twin and my mom and dad had three sets of twins (all fraternal).
I believe the fiery furnace is representative of something other than a literal furnace. Do you believe this too? For instance, when Israel was held captive by Egypt 400 some years the Bible says they were in a furnace too. But was Egypt a literal furnace with literal flames? and was Egypt encased in iron? I believe the "furnace of fire" is representative of harsh trials.
Also, I noticed you didn't quote quite enough in your quote of Luke 17:28-30 above. You left out the bit about Noah. Jesus said: "And according as it occurred in the days of Noah, thus will it be in the days of the Son of Mankind also" (Luke 17:26). Is God going to flood the earth again? No. Then Jesus spoke about Sodom and Gomorrah. The point Jesus was getting at was not the destruction but how it was that certain ones escaped such as Lot and Noah and family. Then Jesus talks about certain ones who are righteous being left in the land and the rest of the wicked ones being taken away (they, the bad ones, will be taken out of the kingdom when Christ comes back.)
Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers,
and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those
doing lawlessness,
This verse above has to do with two in bed, (or on a couch) one taken (because he is doing snares and lawlessness) and the righteous one is left. Luke 17:34,35 also speak of two at the grinding mill, one taken (the lawless one) and the other left due to being righteous.
I realize many believe the above verses are talking about the rapture but I don't think so.
I am curious what your thoughts are on this matter, twin.
Section I - Additions To Chapter 2, Section II, Testimony of Orthodox Critics and Theologians to the Fact That the Doctrine Is Not Taught In the Law of Moses
Section II - Additions to Section III of Chapter 2, Sheol, Or the Old Testament Doctrine of Hell
Section III - Additions To Chapter 4, The Jews Borrowed the Doctrine From the Heathen
Section IV - Additions To Chapter 5, Section IV, The Words Eternal, Everlasting, Forever
Section V - Additions to Chapter 6, The Introduction of the Doctrine Into the Christian Church
Why do you think Jesus will draw ALL men to himself?
Only those who are his sheep he will draw, and that amount will be all
Hi, Jesus said that the ruler of this world has been cast out and if He was lifted up from the earth, He would draw all men to Himself. (John 12) This is the same all for whom Christ died. He gave Himself as a ransom for all. (1 Tiimothy 2:6)Jesus did not just die for some men. It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. (Colossians 1::19-20) God bless.
I am curious what your thoughts are on this matter, twin.
Eusebius
Hi Eusebuis,
Jesus was comparing two literal events, the destruction of the world by the flood & the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, with what will happen when he returns....the destruction of the world by fire, the same fire that consumed S&G.
The other point I would like to make is that the bible doesn't teach of multiple returns of Christ. There will be only one....sudden (like in Noah's day), destroying all the evil (like in S&G). Other certian events like the rapture will occur at the same time with the final judgement of all people. Then a new heaven and earth will be for those who believed while their time of grace while on earth now. No second chance after death or worlds end.
The point of one being taken and one left is to show just how quick and unexpected this will take place and will be world wide....some are sleeping (night time), some are working (day light).
Jesus was comparing two literal events, the destruction of the world by the flood & the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, with what will happen when he returns....the destruction of the world by fire, the same fire that consumed S&G.
Consider this in a spiritual context - what effect the Spirit of God has on the flesh. God is a consuming fire.
Jesus was comparing two literal events, the destruction of the world by the flood & the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, with what will happen when he returns....the destruction of the world by fire, the same fire that consumed S&G.
Hi twin, I am curious why you believe that when Jesus returns the world will be destroyed by fire. Revelation says that when Christ returns He and those with Him will reign for 1000 years. At the end of that 1000 years the world will be destroyed by fire. Just before Christ comes for the 1000 years reign the earth will be destroyed by a world wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations will fall and the islands will be moved.
Quote:
The other point I would like to make is that the bible doesn't teach of multiple returns of Christ. There will be only one....sudden (like in Noah's day), destroying all the evil (like in S&G). Other certian events like the rapture will occur at the same time with the final judgement of all people. Then a new heaven and earth will be for those who believed while their time of grace while on earth now. No second chance after death or worlds end.
Let me give you my rationale for believing in three returns.
The first time Christ came was through Mary, His mother.
The second coming will be for the body of Christ believers of the nations who will meet Him in the air. He will not touch foot on the earth at that time (1 Thess.4:17).
The third time He returns is when He sets foot on Mount Zion and thus all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26).
Hi twin, I am curious why you believe that when Jesus returns the world will be destroyed by fire. Revelation says that when Christ returns He and those with Him will reign for 1000 years. At the end of that 1000 years the world will be destroyed by fire. Just before Christ comes for the 1000 years reign the earth will be destroyed by a world wide earthquake in which all the cities of the nations will fall and the islands will be moved.
Because I'm "amillennialists" by conviction.
The book of Revelation is a special kind of prophecy called apocalypse (the first word of this book in Greek is the word "apocalypse" often translated "revelation"). Apocalyptic literature uses many fanatastic symbols and numbers to picture things for people - but things that should not be taken literally. Revelation 5:6ff., Jesus is pictured like a slain Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes, but then in Revelation 19 Jesus is described as a rider on a white horse with many crowns on his head and dressed in a robe dipped in blood. Neither of these is a literal description of Jesus.
Likewise the numbers in Revelation are often symbolic. Revelation 7 when the number of those in heaven with God is given as 144,000, that isn't a literal number because there will be many more than 144,000 people with God in heaven after the Last Day. Later in Revelation that number is said to be so many that no one can count them. So we know from Revelation itself that the number 144,000 is not to taken literally.
To say that Jesus will reign on earth for a 1000 years before the judgment contradicts two literal statements of Scripture: 1) that no one will know when the day of judgment will be, and 2) that the day when Jesus comes again will be the day of judgment. Those two literal statements of Scripture show us that the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 is apocalyptic symbolism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Let me give you my rationale for believing in three returns.
The first time Christ came was through Mary, His mother.
The second coming will be for the body of Christ believers of the nations who will meet Him in the air. He will not touch foot on the earth at that time (1 Thess.4:17).
The third time He returns is when He sets foot on Mount Zion and thus all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26).
I appreciate you offering your rationale of your understandings of Christ's return.
Those two verses I could explain this:
1. The "body of Christ" and "all of Israel" is talking about the same group of people..the entire OT and NT believers, as Romans 11:25 states.
2. That in and of itself should be enough argument against a 1000 year reign theory...his kingdom is not of this world
3. Jesus' return is called "the day of the Lord" by Peter. 2 Peter 3:10,12 not days.
4. There is a reason "Jesus' feet not touching the earth":
A. "That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat."2 Peter 3:102 Peter 3:12 .. the earth melted in the heat...the earth doesn't exist
B. Peter only speaks of one day, not days of the Lord. Jesus answers questions from the disicples from the singular day of the return, not days of your return. If there was more than one time, Jesus would have said it.
C. Like he said of the heaven...John 14:2
"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you."
The Hebrew word Sh@'owl is not translated as hell in 29 Scriptures, instead opting for grave. Some of them are....
Gen. 37:15
"And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (sh@'owl) unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him."
To be consistent, it should read...
And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him: but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into hell unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
Gen. 42:38
"And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in which ye go, then shall ye bring my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave/ (sh@'owl)."
To be consistent, it should read....
And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in which ye go, then shall ye bring my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.
"Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?"
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