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I ask you to think. Would a creator blame His own creation for any failures? Who is ultimately responsible for any failures of someone's creation? Think about it long and hard. I know it sounds like blasphemy of the worst kind, but on any level, the creation can not achieve anything that the creator has not created it to achieve. Humans can fail, oh yes, we are imperfect so we could hardly create imperfection. But a perfect God? How could He fail to create what He meant to create?
S.W. you have stated the situation well. The Living Life takes full responsibility for His creation. Nothing but nothing has happened by chance, but in complete agreement with the D.N.A. He has placed within it! Jesus Christ is not an afterthought of the Living One, but slain before the foundation of the world, before man's sin, rebellion, and lostness. Mankind are made prisoners of disobedience, not by any choice of its own, ("not willingly") but by reason of Him who has so subjected it. To what end? That in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered!
God is our CREATOR. We have this idea that God formed a man, put him on earth, gave him a few rules and HOPED that of his own free will, His creation would love his creator. But think about it. He CREATED us. Every inch of us.
We look at a baby, it takes much education, constant guidance, to teach this person through its formative years right and wrong. But as parents, though we do the best we can, we had no input into what this child's actual brain works like. Whether everything works the way it's supposed to. Sometimes we put wrong information into it, can damage certain functions if we mishandle the child, but we really didn't have much to do with the way his/her brain functions. But a CREATOR does have much to do with how the brain is formed.
A child comes into the world with brain damage. It will never be able to learn or understand the way 'normal' people do. We say, well God makes allowances for him. He is not responsible for his choices. He will 'go to heaven'. But why? And what will be his state 'in heaven?' Why, he will be changed we say automatically. So then he got a free ticket, just by some accident of birth? He will have all the right rules and love just programed into his new brain? He didn't have to go through the process we do? Does this make sense? Or will he be given the power to see the way things really are, in the ressurection, in an age where God really reigns on earth through his firstfruits and can make the right choices based on the right information which can be processed correctly because at this point all is working correctly?
Then you have your murderers, psychopaths. There is obviously something wrong with them. He does not perceive life or morals or have a conscious such as 'normal' people do. But who allowed or caused this to happen? I say it surely was not any more the fault of that person than the child who was born very mentally incompetent. And if God can change the brain of someone originally born incapable of perceiving right from wrong, how can he not change the perception of one who by one reason or another became what to us seems a monster?
What about those who do try to do the right thing, but even with their best efforts, fail to live completely righteously. Are they to just be resurrected with perfect brains? Perfect motives of the heart? It is my belief that there will be many ages following these ages where instead of being at the mercy of problems created by birth and life experiences where God will rehabilitate each and every one of us. He has ages upon ages to perfect us.
When Yeshua appeared to Thomas after Thomas declared he would not beliieve Christ had risen until he saw him and touched his wounds, he did not condemn Thomas for reserving belief. Did he say---oh ye of little faith, anyone who does not believe in me before they die physically, before the judgment, without seeing me will rot in hell? hmmmm, doesn't say that in my Bible. He said that those who believed without seeing would experience a special kind of blessing. But no condemnation to those who wouldn't believe until they saw him....and most people ever born will not have laid eyes on him until after death. The Bible DOES say, after death comes judgment. But how do we come to the conclusion that judgment means either heaven or hell? By the way a few other passages are translated. Yet Paul says that everyone is to be made alive in Christ in THE SAME WAY that everyone experiences death through ADAM. And the death wasn't given us as a choice, it was assigned to us. So if you can see that this judgment after death is a judgment to make right what we have done so wrong, or perhaps what was done wrong to us, for EVERYONE, the one who was born incapable of making any choices, or those who made wrong choices based on faulty information and faulty ways of processing that information, then we can see that both those passages are true, even the ones who say that there is a wealth of tears and gnashing of teeth for many who didn't trust in the Father in this life.
He says He makes all things new. Well, some of us are going to need a whole lot of things made new. And what a glorious day that will be.
Many scholars of Hebrew and Greek, quoted on this forum, have given good reasons to doubt the translations that give us eternal as a meaning for a word in certain circumstances when this same word is translated age, world, before time, etc in other passages because there is no way that eternity would make sense in those. How could a good and loving God condemn anyone to an eternity of suffering or even non=existence for a few years of choosing badly?
I ask you to think. Would a creator blame His own creation for any failures? Who is ultimately responsible for any failures of someone's creation? Think about it long and hard. I know it sounds like blasphemy of the worst kind, but on any level, the creation can not achieve anything that the creator has not created it to achieve. Humans can fail, oh yes, we are imperfect so we could hardly create imperfection. But a perfect God? How could He fail to create what He meant to create?
Oh, there is accountability since we do have some capacity to know right from wrong, if the creator designed it that way, but ultimately the Creator is responsible for what He created. I state that our Father made no mistakes, that the whole Creation will eventually become what He originally set out to create. He sent His son to guarantee that. He HOPES for nothing. For He sees the end from the beginning. And what you know is not hope, it is certain.
Hell doesn't exist, it's a mistranslation of the Bible, if you read the Old Testament there is NO mention of Hell, but read the real version the "Jewish version". There is NO Hell in Judaism, hell is a pagan believe that the church adopt to scared people.
Why God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with HELL if they dare to eat of the forbidden fruit?
Why God didn't didn't threaten Cain with Hell when he killed his brother?
Why God didn't threaten Ninive with hell when they disobeyed him?
why God didn't threaten the Jews with hell when they built the Golden Calf?
God never threatened anybody to hell in the Old Testament, why all of the sudden hell showed up in the New Testament? Keep in mind that the God of the OT was an angry God so to speak, and Jesus was very peaceful.
Quote:
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him. (Eph 1:9-10)
Check it out: you must begin with GOD when inquiring of these things, who has revealed as to His end in making man, and how far, if at all, His purpose in creation is or has been frustrated in any way. Did the entrance of sin change or affect God's plan? Christ is the answer!
Amen!
Quote:
He says He makes all things new. Well, some of us are going to need a whole lot of things made new. And what a glorious day that will be.
Many scholars of Hebrew and Greek, quoted on this forum, have given good reasons to doubt the translations that give us eternal as a meaning for a word in certain circumstances when this same word is translated age, world, before time, etc in other passages because there is no way that eternity would make sense in those. How could a good and loving God condemn anyone to an eternity of suffering or even non=existence for a few years of choosing badly?
I ask you to think. Would a creator blame His own creation for any failures? Who is ultimately responsible for any failures of someone's creation? Think about it long and hard. I know it sounds like blasphemy of the worst kind, but on any level, the creation can not achieve anything that the creator has not created it to achieve. Humans can fail, oh yes, we are imperfect so we could hardly create imperfection. But a perfect God? How could He fail to create what He meant to create?
Oh, there is accountability since we do have some capacity to know right from wrong, if the creator designed it that way, but ultimately the Creator is responsible for what He created. I state that our Father made no mistakes, that the whole Creation will eventually become what He originally set out to create. He sent His son to guarantee that. He HOPES for nothing. For He sees the end from the beginning. And what you know is not hope, it is certain.
Why God didn't threaten Adam and Eve with HELL if they dare to eat of the forbidden fruit?
Why God didn't didn't threaten Cain with Hell when he killed his brother?
Why God didn't threaten Ninive with hell when they disobeyed him?
why God didn't threaten the Jews with hell when they built the Golden Calf
I do believe that many will experience hell, but if eternal hell is true, why would God keep it a secret from those who were described as His chosen people in the days of the Old Testament?
"Look at it...He reveals the law, but he carefully conceals the awful penalty. His children know nothing at all of the terrible fate which awaits them - they are entirely ignorant of the tremendous fact that their transgressions of the law involve this dreadful result, this woe immortal and infinite, stretching into duration without end and God, their Father, sees them rushing on, year after year, age after age, and stumbling blindfolded down into the black gulf of death and torment, and yet speaks not one word of warning, gives not the slightest intimation to any of them that they are coming to such a doom... . What kind of a God is this? What claim has be to the name of Father? What kind of a Lawgiver is this, who publishes the law, but keeps the penalty concealed, a secret, with himself only? What would be said of a king who should enact a code of laws, annexing to every one of them, as a warning to evildoers, the punishment of death; but never make this fact known to the people? And what if every transgressor were seized, and put to a most horrible death by torture, and this also kept secret from his friends and relations, and from all the world?Yet this is precisely what God has done, as our argument shows, for four thousand years, if the doctrine of endless punishment be true.." T. Thayer http://www.abcog.org/thayer2.htm
There are those referred to as "first-fruits"....they are the "they" spoken of by St. Paul in reference to deliverance in Romans 8. But first-fruits are not the whole harvest which are the "they"....both "they" and "us" "shall be delivered."
Amen. Rev. 12:5, God says that He is making all things new. He is not making all new things. Many, the sons of God, the overcomers, will inherit all things, and come to the water of life without cost. Many will suffer loss, but they will still be made new in the second death, the lake of God's fire. The second death is destruction of the old man, which we Christians are putting to death now by His Holy Spirit.
The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen](through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151). This word limen has the word "fair" before it in Acts 27:8, in the King James Version—the "fair havens." Other translations render this verse as "safe harbor."
God judges the world in a pond. A pond of divine, purifying spirit.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-04-2009 at 02:43 PM..
I do believe that many will experience hell, but if eternal hell is true, why would God keep it a secret from those who were described as His chosen people in the days of the Old Testament?
"Look at it...He reveals the law, but he carefully conceals the awful penalty. His children know nothing at all of the terrible fate which awaits them - they are entirely ignorant of the tremendous fact that their transgressions of the law involve this dreadful result, this woe immortal and infinite, stretching into duration without end and God, their Father, sees them rushing on, year after year, age after age, and stumbling blindfolded down into the black gulf of death and torment, and yet speaks not one word of warning, gives not the slightest intimation to any of them that they are coming to such a doom... . What kind of a God is this? What claim has be to the name of Father? What kind of a Lawgiver is this, who publishes the law, but keeps the penalty concealed, a secret, with himself only? What would be said of a king who should enact a code of laws, annexing to every one of them, as a warning to evildoers, the punishment of death; but never make this fact known to the people? And what if every transgressor were seized, and put to a most horrible death by torture, and this also kept secret from his friends and relations, and from all the world?Yet this is precisely what God has done, as our argument shows, for four thousand years, if the doctrine of endless punishment be true.." T. Thayer Thayer: The Origin and History of Endless Punishment
God bless.
Hell goes against God own laws and moral, those who believe that people would burn in hell for ever must be sick, a God of love, forgiveness, compassion won't send his on people to hell.
Sometimes God has to get our attention and to do that He chooses to use events which are instruments of His judgment. God told Moses that the reason for His judgment upon the Egyptians was to make them know that He is God. Everything God does shows us something about who He is, but in this instance of judgment God particularly expressed that His intent was to show Himself to the Egyptians. And He was successful in this, for in chapter eight of Exodus Moses records the magicians telling Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." Our God has foretold the blessed era when He shall be all in all. (1 Cor. 15) How can God ever be all in all ? Are there not some creatures and men too calloused and hostile to bend to His omnipotence? Let each one who knows Him as their ALL give answer thus: "He who has broken my stubborn will and brought me to His feet can lead the most obstinate to Himself."His indignation may break and destroy pride and rebellion for the ages, but His love will endure endlessly and He will pursue all men until at last they surrender to His love.Ah, yes, God knows just how to get our attention.He can get it here and now. If He doesn't get it here, He will get it in hell. If He doesn't get it in hell, He will get it in the lake of fire. He will get it by gracious words and tender mercies, if He can. But if not, He will get it by severe judgments and awful wrath. But, blessed be His name, He will get our attention!"
P. Eby
Isaiah 26:9
At night my soul longs for You,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-04-2009 at 02:31 PM..
What is the earnest expectation of the creature? We are all waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God! Does the Church today even care what they are to become, or are they just waiting for a freakin' rapture so that they can pick out their "mansion"? The plan of God is so far above what we project in our lives today. Do we have any concept what "Firstfruits" are? We must be - we will be - conformed into His image in order to bring forth fruit!
I believe he is referring to those who have refused Jesus as Savior, unbelievers. You're right, just because I believe hell is real and eternal does not make it so, but I believe that is what the teaches and to me that makes it so. I do not believe we are all going there, just people who have rejected Jesus. Luckily I do not wrest with myths either and I am a Christian.
I think it requires more than "belief". Mtthew 25:31---
Quote:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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The Living Life takes full responsibility for His creation. Nothing but nothing has happened by chance, but in complete agreement with the D.N.A. He has placed within it! Jesus Christ is not an afterthought of the Living One, but slain before the foundation of the world, before man's sin, rebellion, and lostness. Mankind are made prisoners of disobedience, not by any choice of its own, ("not willingly") but by reason of Him who has so subjected it. To what end? That in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered!
The plan of God is so far above what we project in our lives today. Do we have any concept what "Firstfruits" are? We must be - we will be - conformed into His image in order to bring forth fruit!
