The Truth About Hell (evolve, cross, evangelists, passages)
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The purpose of discipline is to bend the will of the child that he may grow in wisdom and understanding and follow the will of his parents. But we say--some are incorrigible (another term that I believe is not scriptural). Can God read the heart? Does he not know the reason for that person’s rebellion? Does he not know what correction or care will work for the individual? Does God require more from us as parents than he does of himself? Are not God's judgments perfect and successful? Isa. 55:11, Isa. 45:23. Can God deny himself? 2 Tim 2:13. God being able to read the heart (Matt. 10:29-30) and know what made that person's character what it is, is able to give the proper correction (that will work) and turn that person around. God does not fail!!!!
The purpose of discipline is to bend the will of the child that he may grow in wisdom and understanding and follow the will of his parents. But we say--some are incorrigible (another term that I believe is not scriptural). Can God read the heart? Does he not know the reason for that person’s rebellion? Does he not know what correction or care will work for the individual? Does God require more from us as parents than he does of himself? Are not God's judgments perfect and successful? Isa. 55:11, Isa. 45:23. Can God deny himself? 2 Tim 2:13. God being able to read the heart (Matt. 10:29-30) and know what made that person's character what it is, is able to give the proper correction (that will work) and turn that person around. God does not fail!!!!
God bless.
Miriam Mohr grasps the purpose and goal of correction/ punishment/ kolasis!
The question of all questions is essentially this: can evil finally triumph over Good?
If evil ultimately triumphs
If we answer affirmatively with the popular creed of unending evil and sin, we are practically falling into dualism; if we reply negatively, we are teaching the Restitution of all things. The Calvinist settled the question by, in fact, affirming that if evil triumphs it is because God so orders, that is, because God decrees to evil an eternal existence; thus saving or trying to save God's omnipotence, but at no less a cost than that of blackening His character, yes, of virtually making Him a partner in evil.
God Satisfied With Endless Disobedience?
But the popular creed of despair and unending curse saves neither the omnipotence of God, nor yet preserves His character. Sin, the one thing most utterly hateful in His sight, He tolerates forever and ever, poisoning and defiling His works, and defying His power--satisfied, if in this brief life He cannot have obedience and righteousness--satisfied with endless disobedience and sin hereafter.
A Baffled Saviour A Victorious Devil?
He appears before all creation as trying to dislodge sin, only to fail; as sending His divine Son to save all men in order that He may return rejected, baffled, vanquished. And so the curtain falls on the great drama of creation and redemption, presenting such a picture as this- a baffled Saviour, a victorious devil, a ruined creation, sin triumphant- and so to continue forever- a heaven wholly base, a hell wholly miserable.
God's Essence
Strong as these words are, they are not strong enough, for the horrors and the contradictions of the popular creed alike defy description. And these horrors are taught, these contradictions are believed in the face of the plainest teaching of God's two revelations, His primary revelation to our moral sense, His written revelation in Holy Scripture. From the first page to the last the Bible is the story on one who is our Father- one whose 'wrath', and 'fire', and 'judgement', are at once most real, and yet one and all are the expressions of that essential LOVE which He is- One who being Almighty is sending His Son to assured victory, to reconcile to Himself all things, 'whatsover and wheresoever they be.'
Vain Attempts
I know how eagerly men strive to save the popular creed, by diminishing the number of the lost, by softening their torments, by asserting their annihilation, etc. What are all these but to many tacit confessions that men everywhere feel it impossible to maintain the creed still generally professed? What are they but in fact so many vain attempts to disguise the awful fact of God's defeat, to hide if it may be the victory of the evil one? For so long as sin lingers in a single heart, so long as a single child of the Great Parent perishes eternally, whether annihilated, or sent to hell, so long is the Cross a failure, and the devil practically victor.
Miriam Mohr grasps the purpose and goal of correction/ punishment/ kolasis!
Yes, Birdy, many don't believe that God is able to win all to Himself. They say that it is wrong. They believe that love does not interfere with free will, however, it is believed that love is preparing everlasting hell for those who are said to be lost, blind, and deceived.
Many believe that God is not able to reach some hearts. It is believed that they are too far gone. Does this mean that evil is greater than good, that the creature's heart is too hardened for God to penetrate? What does this say then about the power of evil vs. the power of the Creator of all hearts?
Parents seek to influence the wills of their children for good and if they are successful, we are glad and thankful. If God seeks to influence our will and if He is successful, we retreat...Why?
God is not at the mercy of man's "free will" and nor should He be, for from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things. (Romans 11:36) God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-29-2009 at 03:18 PM..
What You Must Ignore To Be A Believer In Eternal Punishment:
God Is Love
- you must believe God is only "love" at some times, but at other times He is only wrath and anger, but no love.
God's Mercy Endures Forever
- you must believe that at some point God's mercy ceases for some people and He never shows mercy again for all eternity.
God Will Not Retain His Anger Forever
- you must believe that God will retain His anger for all of eternity.
God Wills All Men To Be Saved
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and won't be done in regards to the salvation of men.
God Keeps No Record Of Wrongs
- you must believe that God will keep a record of wrongs for all eternity.
God Loves His Enemies
- you must believe that God will not love His enemies but will instead torment them for all eternity even though He commands US to love OUR enemies in order to be like Him.
Jesus Is The Saviour Of The World
- you must believe that Jesus is only the Saviour of some people.
If Jesus Is Lifted Up He Will Draw/ Drag Off/ Impel All Men To Himself
- you must believe that Jesus will only drag SOME men to Himself, but not all.
God Is Not Willing That Any Should Perish
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and some will perish because their will can override God's will....making them sovereign over God in matters eternal
Jesus Came To Seek & To Save That Which Was Lost
- you must believe that He came, went seeking and then still lost many/ most.....but did not save all that was lost, thereby failing in His mission to save that which was lost.
The question of all questions is essentially this: can evil finally triumph over Good?
If evil ultimately triumphs
If we answer affirmatively with the popular creed of unending evil and sin, we are practically falling into dualism; if we reply negatively, we are teaching the Restitution of all things. The Calvinist settled the question by, in fact, affirming that if evil triumphs it is because God so orders, that is, because God decrees to evil an eternal existence; thus saving or trying to save God's omnipotence, but at no less a cost than that of blackening His character, yes, of virtually making Him a partner in evil.
God Satisfied With Endless Disobedience?
But the popular creed of despair and unending curse saves neither the omnipotence of God, nor yet preserves His character. Sin, the one thing most utterly hateful in His sight, He tolerates forever and ever, poisoning and defiling His works, and defying His power--satisfied, if in this brief life He cannot have obedience and righteousness--satisfied with endless disobedience and sin hereafter.
A Baffled Saviour A Victorious Devil?
He appears before all creation as trying to dislodge sin, only to fail; as sending His divine Son to save all men in order that He may return rejected, baffled, vanquished. And so the curtain falls on the great drama of creation and redemption, presenting such a picture as this- a baffled Saviour, a victorious devil, a ruined creation, sin triumphant- and so to continue forever- a heaven wholly base, a hell wholly miserable.
God's Essence
Strong as these words are, they are not strong enough, for the horrors and the contradictions of the popular creed alike defy description. And these horrors are taught, these contradictions are believed in the face of the plainest teaching of God's two revelations, His primary revelation to our moral sense, His written revelation in Holy Scripture. From the first page to the last the Bible is the story on one who is our Father- one whose 'wrath', and 'fire', and 'judgement', are at once most real, and yet one and all are the expressions of that essential LOVE which He is- One who being Almighty is sending His Son to assured victory, to reconcile to Himself all things, 'whatsover and wheresoever they be.'
Vain Attempts
I know how eagerly men strive to save the popular creed, by diminishing the number of the lost, by softening their torments, by asserting their annihilation, etc. What are all these but to many tacit confessions that men everywhere feel it impossible to maintain the creed still generally professed? What are they but in fact so many vain attempts to disguise the awful fact of God's defeat, to hide if it may be the victory of the evil one? For so long as sin lingers in a single heart, so long as a single child of the Great Parent perishes eternally, whether annihilated, or sent to hell, so long is the Cross a failure, and the devil practically victor.
What You Must Ignore To Be A Believer In Eternal Punishment:
God Is Love
- you must believe God is only "love" at some times, but at other times He is only wrath and anger, but no love.
God's Mercy Endures Forever
- you must believe that at some point God's mercy ceases for some people and He never shows mercy again for all eternity.
God Will Not Retain His Anger Forever
- you must believe that God will retain His anger for all of eternity.
God Wills All Men To Be Saved
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and won't be done in regards to the salvation of men.
God Keeps No Record Of Wrongs
- you must believe that God will keep a record of wrongs for all eternity.
God Loves His Enemies
- you must believe that God will not love His enemies but will instead torment them for all eternity even though He commands US to love OUR enemies in order to be like Him.
Jesus Is The Saviour Of The World
- you must believe that Jesus is only the Saviour of some people.
If Jesus Is Lifted Up He Will Draw/ Drag Off/ Impel All Men To Himself
- you must believe that Jesus will only drag SOME men to Himself, but not all.
God Is Not Willing That Any Should Perish
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and some will perish because their will can override God's will....making them sovereign over God in matters eternal
Jesus Came To Seek & To Save That Which Was Lost
- you must believe that He came, went seeking and then still lost many/ most.....but did not save all that was lost, thereby failing in His mission to save that which was lost.
Birdy I absolutely love your posts . . . they invite actual thought and consideration of God's messages to us in light of common sense and love . . . not rote unthinking reading of literal passages written for a more primitive audience. Revision and evolution is the natural order of things . . . so it should be with intellectual beliefs. Like all matter and energy in the universe, the emotional and intellectual structures that we build are constantly transformed by outside forces. Much of our effort is wasted in propping up our beliefs, defending them, and convincing others to believe in them so that they might become 'permanent.'
Religious beliefs have resisted change, despite the overwhelming evidence that every other area of human concern has clearly benefited from a natural intellectual evolution of knowledge. Once we understand the folly in this, we will attain spiritual maturity by using the evolution in nature to our advantage - accepting, incorporating, and supporting change when and where it needs to occur. Our beliefs become astute because they are based on a dynamic evolving reality, not on fixed or wishful thinking.
Too many of Jesus' self-appointed apostles today foolishly place the emphasis on retaining and promoting literally interpreted fundamental beliefs. What is worse, they often focus on minuscule differences of opinion and escalate them into major concerns. How ironic it is that so many of these self-appointed religious evangelists in the Christian fold so closely resemble the Scribes and Pharisees described by Jesus in Matthew 15:9,
"in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the precepts of men."
It is a vain and foolish person who says "live as I say for the reasons I give you and no others." That only serves vanity and ego. Our God couldn't be less reasonable than the best human being! If certain beliefs are causing people to err because they can no longer accept them, revise them or cast them out, as Jesus suggested in Luke 14:34
. . . Salt is good; but if even the salt loses its strength, what shall it be seasoned with? It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure heap, but must be thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
And in Luke 5:36,
. . . And no-one pours new wine into old wine skins; else the new wine will burst the skins, and will be spilt itself, and the skins ruined. But the new wine must be put into fresh skins and both are saved.
What You Must Ignore To Be A Believer In Eternal Punishment:
God Is Love
- you must believe God is only "love" at some times, but at other times He is only wrath and anger, but no love.
God's Mercy Endures Forever
- you must believe that at some point God's mercy ceases for some people and He never shows mercy again for all eternity.
God Will Not Retain His Anger Forever
- you must believe that God will retain His anger for all of eternity.
God Wills All Men To Be Saved
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and won't be done in regards to the salvation of men.
God Keeps No Record Of Wrongs
- you must believe that God will keep a record of wrongs for all eternity.
God Loves His Enemies
- you must believe that God will not love His enemies but will instead torment them for all eternity even though He commands US to love OUR enemies in order to be like Him.
Jesus Is The Saviour Of The World
- you must believe that Jesus is only the Saviour of some people.
If Jesus Is Lifted Up He Will Draw/ Drag Off/ Impel All Men To Himself
- you must believe that Jesus will only drag SOME men to Himself, but not all.
God Is Not Willing That Any Should Perish
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and some will perish because their will can override God's will....making them sovereign over God in matters eternal
Jesus Came To Seek & To Save That Which Was Lost
- you must believe that He came, went seeking and then still lost many/ most.....but did not save all that was lost, thereby failing in His mission to save that which was lost.
To all whom may wonder.....
This post is actually what hell is about....a lie!! Where all lies are going one day!!
It denies Christ and the blood He shed on the cross for sin....
Satan has been trying to keep Christ off the cross since the beginning of time... he tried to use nations, kings, anything he could and can...yes, even the average Joe....whatever tactics he could he still trying to use and do it....he knows that if he can get those to believe there is no such thing as hell, a place for the destruction of sin.... he has over powered the truth of why Christ was crucified, for our sin!!
To deliver ones soul from.... He is the Atonement. It is in the BLOOD....the ULTIMATE sacrifice poured upon the cross and Satan knows this....... and he will use anything to take the heart away from the purpose of it....
To all whom may wonder.....
This post is actually what hell is about....a lie!! Where all lies are going one day!! It denies Christ and the blood He shed on the cross for sin....
Satan has been trying to keep Christ off the cross since the beginning of time...
My dear Curly: the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has rectified (for all time) all that the first Adam accomplished by one single act of disobedience! Do you know that He is the Mercy Seat for our sins, and not for our sins ONLY/ monos/ monon, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude?
"As one man's trespass led to condemnation for all mankind, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal for all mankind. For as by one man's disobedience the mass of mankind were made sinners, so by one man's obedience the mass of mankind will be made righteous."
Dear Birdy, it is not Curly you argue with but God and and His word.....
John 3:18-21
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth come to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.
Yes, Christ died for the whole world to reconcile it back to the Father..... BUT, not all will receive Him....if you notice in the Scripture above it is a choice...that is what is so beautiful about God's mercy and love, He gives people the choice and opportunity through Christ to choose heaven!!
Sorry Birdy, but it is what it is.....
Quote:
Satan has been trying to keep Christ off the cross since the beginning of time... he tried to use nations, kings, anything he could and can...yes, even the average Joe....whatever tactics he could he still trying to use and do it....he knows that if he can get those to believe there is no such thing as hell, a place for the destruction of sin.... he has over powered the truth of why Christ was crucified, for our sin!!
To deliver ones soul from.... He is the Atonement. It is in the BLOOD....the ULTIMATE sacrifice poured upon the cross and Satan knows this....... and he will use anything to take the heart away from the purpose of it....
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 04-30-2009 at 07:05 AM..
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