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Excuse me. I hadn't seen that, or i couldn't recall seeing it. Then I would argue that Humanism is a better alternative to Christianity. 'Agape love' is at best an impractical ideal - at least at this time (and Jesus' execution was nothing to do with it anyway) and at worst it is a sham. Those who bang on most about it are the ones who seem most short of it. What they do have is a self -awarded mandate to lecture everyone else.
All that seems to be saying is that humanity is proceeding through a slow and not uniform mental progress. What I don't see is that a cosmic mind is directing it. If it was, i would expect it to be more coherent.
Biological evolution is not so ordered. Social evolution is not so ordered, yet there is a gradual development. A program directed by an intelligence with a plan ought to be better ordered, as training course are, or ought to be.
That is not all that is saying, Arq. Let me point out just a little of the complicating issues. We are talking about biologically driven processes that involve maturation as well as evolution. Each individual consciousness in each generation has to learn and formulate its cognitive perspective gradually as it matures. For the first 25 years or so the brain responsible for the learning is not fully mature but it is being conditioned by its environment every single second of every day. The biological imperatives control the conditioning and learning early on and the social environment intrudes with increasing expectations. Virtually nothing in the intrinsic biological motivations would ever lead to a humanist perspective so that is entirely dependent on the development of memes for control of those motivations.
How would the evolution of those memes proceed? Well, we know how they DID proceed and there is a remarkably consistent template for the development of those controlling memes as I discovered in the spiritual fossil record of those memes. Is it possible they could develop in some other way? Who knows? But it cannot be denied that it DID proceed following very similar spiritual templates depending on the sophistication and social zeitgeist of each era. Your expectations for a guiding influence is that it should proceed by force of Will of God or there is no God inspiring it. I take the opposite view and do not presume to know why the inspiration and influence route exists instead of a more direct imposition of Will. But there is no doubt it is messier.
Sorry mate. All I see is the usual - a very evident natural process of evolution of biological forms, humans, reaction to instinct to pack identity and function plus problem -solving to reasoning and complex society.
And none of that needs a Cosmic mind nor shows any shred of decent evidence there is one. I have touched on some of the faith -based illogic that you have exhibited either in putting your case or in slapping down anyone who disagrees with you and I won't weary them with repeating as you never listen anyway.
Suffice it that it is the old, old Theistic back to front reasoning that takes the whole of the natural world and cosmos and imagines there is a god behind it. It is really Very Simple.
I know (and I will explain this much on your behalf) that you have had an Experience which has convinced you. I believe in the Experience, but it cannot by any reason be ruled out that this is just a very strong mental feeling that people get in all religions and perhaps none. I have had extremes of Euphoria myself and I have certainly experienced the 'conversion -feeling' except it was the 'deconversion' feeling. Maybe it isn't the same thing. maybe it is and those who 'convert/get Enlightened/experience God' just get carried away by it. I don't know. I do believe that you are sincere about that.
But it gives you Faith and Faith had buggered all your reasoning since then. I don't know whether that is the cause of the arrogant and supercilious way you deal with your opponents, or whether that's just you (as I say I would not have liked to be in your class) but it sure does nothing to bring any 'Agape' to the way you respond to people.
Sorry mate. All I see is the usual - a very evident natural process of evolution of biological forms, humans, reaction to instinct to pack identity and function plus problem -solving to reasoning and complex society.
And none of that needs a Cosmic mind nor shows any shred of decent evidence there is one. I have touched on some of the faith -based illogic that you have exhibited either in putting your case or in slapping down anyone who disagrees with you and I won't weary them with repeating as you never listen anyway.
Suffice it that it is the old, old Theistic back to front reasoning that takes the whole of the natural world and cosmos and imagines there is a god behind it. It is really Very Simple.
I know (and I will explain this much on your behalf) that you have had an Experience which has convinced you. I believe in the Experience, but it cannot by any reason be ruled out that this is just a very strong mental feeling that people get in all religions and perhaps none. I have had extremes of Euphoria myself and I have certainly experienced the 'conversion -feeling' except it was the 'deconversion' feeling. Maybe it isn't the same thing. maybe it is and those who 'convert/get Enlightened/experience God' just get carried away by it. I don't know. I do believe that you are sincere about that.
But it gives you Faith and Faith had buggered all your reasoning since then. I don't know whether that is the cause of the arrogant and supercilious way you deal with your opponents, or whether that's just you (as I say I would not have liked to be in your class) but it sure does nothing to bring any 'Agape' to the way you respond to people.
Touche' Well, I tried to sensitize you to the existence of the spiritual template in the spiritual fossil record that bespeaks SOME source for its ubiquity. You prefer to ignore the implications of its existence in the evolution of our understanding of human purpose. As you wish.
Touche' Well, I tried to sensitize you to the existence of the spiritual template in the spiritual fossil record that bespeaks SOME source for its ubiquity. You prefer to ignore the implications of its existence in the evolution of our understanding of human purpose. As you wish.
Again you completely misunderstand the skeptical rationale. I no NOT 'Ignore' your theories. I look at the evidence (such as it is) and decide that it does not convince me - not by a long way. The 'naturalist' explanation (as I explained) fits the facts better and is to be taken as the theory that would seem to be the better model of our reality. If you don't understand this, you are screwed in all your attempts to debate the issue.
Again you completely misunderstand the skeptical rationale. I no NOT 'Ignore' your theories. I look at the evidence (such as it is) and decide that it does not convince me - not by a long way. The 'naturalist' explanation (as I explained) fits the facts better and is to be taken as the theory that would seem to be the better model of our reality. If you don't understand this, you are screwed in all your attempts to debate the issue.
I say you do ignore it. What is your hypothesis for the existence of this spiritual Savior template that seems to be endemic in the spiritual fossil record? What natural explanation fits the fact of its existence?
I say you do ignore it. What is your hypothesis for the existence of this spiritual Savior template that seems to be endemic in the spiritual fossil record? What natural explanation fits the fact of its existence?
This is another way you misunderstand the scientific method. Just because there is no known or plausible hypothesis yet does not mean that the Other hypothesis has to be true. At one time the 'spiritual' aspects were considered to be outside of science. Now science is making sense of them, with the mental effects of certain procedures producing mental effects or accessing instinctive ones like trust, faith and reverence. human tendency to plead with imaginary beings to make things better for them or sort their problems is well known, and I think the idea of 'sacrificing something' to earn some kind of reciprocation from the supposed deity is one to be considered; and the actual mechanism will become understood in time, or so I expect.
I say you do ignore it. What is your hypothesis for the existence of this spiritual Savior template that seems to be endemic in the spiritual fossil record? What natural explanation fits the fact of its existence?
It's another example of how christians try to hijack real science by calling the scriptures a sort of moral fossil record of spirituality.
At best the scriptures would represent a moral fossil record, but a truer moral fossil record would incorporate any and all writings concerning morality.
Going with the concept, consider how chockablock crowded the moral fossil record will be for future spiritual geologists. It will include graffiti from bathroom walls, President Trump's Tweets, the Communist Manifesto, the history of Prohibition, the Declaration of the Rights of Man, the entire self help industry, Bob Dylan songs, The Little Engine That Could and Mein Kampf.
I thought it took at least three minutes to defeat an atheist...
Did someone - some Roger Bannister of theists - break the three-minute atheist-defeat when I wasn't looking?
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