Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
When you use "just," you are implying that you refer to a base or brute fact, but chemistry is not. It is derivative of much deeper unknowns.
Irrelevant to my point that life is a subset of chemistry (chemistry (life)), there is no life / none life separation (life)(none life).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
We can begin with why or how an initial Chaos would ever result in a uniformly ordered and consistently rigid Reality of lawlike processes like those you refer to as "just chemistry."
You have the same problem in explaining why there should NOT be uniformly ordered and consistently rigid Reality of lawlike processes. Your assertion explains nothing and raises more questions about this alleged god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The complexities that remain inexplicable despite very detailed investigations and depictions filling our science simply compound the miraculous "products" of the initial chaos beyond all measure.
A well worded god of the gaps argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Despite the pretense to knowledge invoked by the use of euphemisms like "emergence" or the many "self-whatevers," the unknowns remain unknown.
Not only a well worded god of the gaps argument, but you also have this problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Life and subjective consciousness present the most inexplicable "products" from the essentially "dead and unaware" Reality you assume and which our science tries valiantly to defend and depict mathematically as "just physics or chemistry."
And there is the science you need to ignore with a subtle poisoning of the well fallacy. Up to now, all the evidence STILL points to life and subjective consciousness being a product of this natural world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Ironically, their flailing efforts to avoid a subjective conscious Reality (which can be nothing less than God) produce some of the more esoteric "woo" that rivals the "supernatural" nonsense they denigrate
And there is the science you need to ignore with a blatant poisoning of the well fallacy, plus begging the question. All the evidence up to now STILL points to consciousness being a product of the human brain despite your valiant attempts to project it onto the universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
While the "supernatural" does not exist, a subjective conscious Reality does.
In our brains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Quantum foam, virtual particles, strings, multidimensional branes, and such explanatory gems litter the scientific efforts.
I guess the pervasiveness of proselytizing among those who believe in God because of their religious dogma justifies an assumption (presumption) that every theist is doing that. But I can assure you, I am NOT. I am explaining and defending why I know (sufficient for my purposes) that our Reality is conscious and we are simply part of its reproduction. My encounters in deep meditation were unmistakable and for ME undeniable. I expect no one else to use my experiences or certainty as a basis for belief in the existence of God, but the minimalist attributes are a definite basis that cannot be denied simply because of preference. My Synthesis provides what I consider significant plausibility to my view but since it consists of hypotheses that are not yet verified, its plausibility will have to suffice.
Before science became science, God was what the progenitors of science were investigating. The autocratic nature of the religious dictators forced the early scientists to break from the religions and establish their own jargon to eliminate any reference to or consideration of God. That is the genesis of your Nature, Universe, and the like so if the validity of labels is based on first use, God is the winner.
I presume that it was your god's hand that created the three centuries of inquisitions? There are always those that believe that cannot tolerate those that do not believe the same. Of course I cannot talk for all atheist; but most of us could care less what another believes. However, because of self-preservation, we want people to know that there is nothing wrong with somebody that doesn't believe. That is what happened in the inquisition and it would be repeated today if some could sway public opinion to favor their side of these arguments.
To us god is nothing more than a word in our language. Humans can think of themselves as gods. Or it can be a statue of what one thought was a god. God could also mean that omnipotent, universe, that you refer to - but we do not distinguish; because it does not mean anything to most of us.
Many years ago at work I would not tell anybody what I believed. There was this 'lost sheep' mentality. Believers felt it was their fault that somebody did not believe and they had to correct the 'problem'. I look at your ten post on this thread and I feel the same as I felt in the 1970's at work. You might not believe in a Christian god; but you are still proselytizing with an attempt to sway those to your beliefs.
lmao ... yes it is, isn't it. but we have to be mindful the audience don't we? like it is useful to talk about our universe being based on valence shell electron movement, it is useful to use the language of the person we are talking to.
The physics points to the claim that whatever we would label ourselves we can label portions of the universe. The only thing that comes into question is the volumes.
and that's what i think the regular theist are misunderstanding as this god thing.
the validity of labels is based on first use, God is the winner.
Mmmm Mmm that is incorrect and as usual, an assumption on your part. Although I have had a hell of a time letting go of the possibility of an afterlife, this is not true. There is no god so therefore he/she/it cannot be a "winner". My idea of an afterlife is purely based on energy, not some evil god who can't right wrongs or even cares to. Therefore, no god. Look Mystic, we've known each other a long time and you've watched me morph into an atheist over the years and you have remained steady in your faith. That's admirable albeit delusional. Mystical experiences through meditation aside, you must be aware that your argument is flimsy at best and I wonder what your true intentions are being here in the atheist/agnostic forum.
You have a right to post wherever you want and quite honestly I enjoy your posts, always have. I admit you baffle me with your prolific and confusing posts so I have to take one sentence out of what you said and address it lol. If I take things out of context I apologize for that but certain statements beg for attention. I think you're still here to talk turkey with like-minded people, even if they're atheist. We are the most intelligent after all.
Mmmm Mmm that is incorrect and as usual, an assumption on your part. Although I have had a hell of a time letting go of the possibility of an afterlife, this is not true. There is no god so therefore he/she/it cannot be a "winner". My idea of an afterlife is purely based on energy, not some evil god who can't right wrongs or even cares to. Therefore, no god. Look Mystic, we've known each other a long time and you've watched me morph into an atheist over the years and you have remained steady in your faith. That's admirable albeit delusional. Mystical experiences through meditation aside, you must be aware that your argument is flimsy at best and I wonder what your true intentions are being here in the atheist/agnostic forum.
You have a right to post wherever you want and quite honestly I enjoy your posts, always have. I admit you baffle me with your prolific and confusing posts so I have to take one sentence out of what you said and address it lol. If I take things out of context I apologize for that but certain statements beg for attention. I think you're still here to talk turkey with like-minded people, even if they're atheist. We are the most intelligent after all.
You know I dearly love you, DOTL and completely understand where you are and why on the God issue. I am not sure I could have brushed off the shackles of a fundamentalist indoctrination without blowback but fortunately, I did not have that burden. My intentions are simple - to defend my belief in God and explain why since I was atheist for over 30 years and know what I could not accept. I empathize with the atheist mindset. I have no other agenda. Atheists are generally very intelligent but I do not attribute that to their atheism. Yes, I do like to interact with intelligent people but I do not think intelligence is what is needed to understand and relate to God. Love is.
You know I dearly love you, DOTL and completely understand where you are and why on the God issue. I am not sure I could have brushed off the shackles of a fundamentalist indoctrination without blowback but fortunately, I did not have that burden. My intentions are simple - to defend my belief in God and explain why since I was atheist for over 30 years and know what I could not accept. I empathize with the atheist mindset. I have no other agenda. Atheists are generally very intelligent but I do not attribute that to their atheism. Yes, I do like to interact with intelligent people but I do not think intelligence is what is needed to understand and relate to God. Love is.
Of course people change their beliefs; that is why they call us humans. Some people go crazy, some people develop illnesses that affect how they think, some people take mind altering drugs, some people develop dementia and some Alzheimer's. Some people are even swayed by public opinion or by the words of others. Does that mean they all now have the answers?
You are talking on an atheist forum in the hopes that some will be converted to your beliefs. Like I said on another thread it took me almost twenty years to get to where I am now. I have been an atheist for about 50 years and I do not plan on changing anytime soon. I have to ask you; why atheist? Have you had success converting Christians or Muslims or any of the other religions? Have any welcomed you with open arms? I would speculate that you will not get too many atheist to convert to your side. The reason I state that is because, for many of us, this was a personal decision - not one shoved on us since birth.
I am agnostic (60% no god; 40% of some higher power/force), but I have no problem understanding the diehard atheist. I do have major issues with diehard deists, however.
Man has never been a rational being; he's always leaning on emotion to guide his life. He wishes that a good and loving god exists so he can find a tiny bit of comfort in death and in the unknown.
What awaits us all is the final mystery. But it may very well be we won't know the mystery because we will be forever dead.
Last edited by FrancaisDeutsch; 08-02-2018 at 10:38 AM..
I am agnostic (60% no god; 40% of some higher power/force), but I have no problem understanding the diehard atheist. I do have major issues with diehard deists, however.
Man has never been a rational being; he's always leaning on emotion to guide his life. He wishes that a good and loving god exists so he can find a tiny bit of comfort in death and in the unknown.
What awaits us all is the final mystery. But it may very well be we won't know the mystery because we will be forever dead.
That's the concept I can't get my head around. Just like I can't get my head around infinity. Perhaps that is where this penchant for believing in an afterlife stems from? Can anyone imagine being dead and no longer existing? It's not like sleeping - we dream during sleep. We slip into dream sleep and wake from dream sleep. Yet there are creatures that shut down completely, as in drying out, then re-animate once they get rehydrated. What happens to their consciousness during that time? Maybe I just overthink things.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
