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That's the plan. censored from influence on education, the law and politics and out of society as much as possible. And removed to the mythology shelf along with all the other obsolete gods and myths about them.
Some people find videos proving a flat earth useful (as astonishing number about, peddling the idiot idea that an aircraft loses rotational momentum as soon as it leaves the ground). If they "Need" it that's up to them, but the rest of us would be better off without it.
It will only become mythology when peace and love are considered outdated ideas.
Harry Diogenes, okay I read the passage about Jesus and the OT laws. Here is my initial thought after reading it.
"They will be called great".
Called great by whom? Jesus has also said MANY times that the first will be last, the proud will be humbled, etc.
"Until heaven and earth disappear".
I understand this to mean the second temple.
If you take it literally as atheists then I don't even know what to say to you. If all atheists read the Bible so literally they will always sound absurd whenever they try to argue about it, even to fundamentalist believers, because I think everyone subconsciously understands the meaning of these stories the same way, even fundamentalists. The word "world" can mean more than one thing, and everyone knows the symbolic meaning of the word. And I think everyone knows the symbolic meaning of "heaven" as something existing in the mind. But to the kind of atheist who doesn't want acknowledge the meaning of symbols which are such a huge part of the way people think, because even atheists have dreams, he will always sound absurd when he tries to argue about symbolic things in a literal manner. Even to Bible literalists.
It was in the sermon on the mount, and the context was that the laws of the OT remain until the universe is no more. That includes all the bad stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
Does it apply to everyone?
It does not say, but Christians have to pretend it only applies to Jews, otherwise they have a contradiction with Pauline Christianity and Mark's gospel.
Harry Diogenes, okay I read the passage about Jesus and the OT laws. Here is my initial thought after reading it.
"They will be called great".
Called great by whom? Jesus has also said MANY times that the first will be last, the proud will be humbled, etc.
"Until heaven and earth disappear".
I understand this to mean the second temple.
If you take it literally as atheists then I don't even know what to say to you. If all atheists read the Bible so literally they will always sound absurd whenever they try to argue about it, even to fundamentalist believers, because I think everyone subconsciously understands the meaning of these stories the same way, even fundamentalists.
So I am absurd because I know what it literally says, but you are not absurd for making an ad hoc excuse? You understand it to mean the second temple based on what? Because you want it to, because you do not like what the literal passage infers? That you 'somehow' understanding what it really means is what is absurd.
Because I have evidence (the gospel of Matthew itself) that the unknown author of Matthew was a Jewish Christian, and that he was saying the Pauline Christians were wrong with regard to the circumcision and dietary laws, and that ALL the OT laws remain until the very end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
The word "world" can mean more than one thing, and everyone knows the symbolic meaning of the word. And I think everyone knows the symbolic meaning of "heaven" as something existing in the mind. But to the kind of atheist who doesn't want acknowledge the meaning of symbols which are such a huge part of the way people think, because even atheists have dreams, he will always sound absurd when he tries to argue about symbolic things in a literal manner. Even to Bible literalists.
The word for world γῆ means the earth, soil, land, country, or inhabitants of an area, and in over 200 uses of this word in the NT, it is always used in that context, and NEVER to mean the temple. So "everyone knows the symbolic meaning of the word" is blatant invention, and the fact that you need to invent this BS makes you look absurd and desperate.
It will only become mythology when peace and love are considered outdated ideas.
Absurd. As though the Bible has an exclusive monopoly on that. In fact it hi -jacks the undeserved credit for solutions to those questions while proposing self -serving, unfeasible and downright bad alternatives to what humanist morality can come up with. The sooner the Bible is regarded as an academic study of ancient mythology, and not as a guide to modern life, the better.
It was in the sermon on the mount, and the context was that the laws of the OT remain until the universe is no more. That includes all the bad stuff.
It does not say, but Christians have to pretend it only applies to Jews, otherwise they have a contradiction with Pauline Christianity and Mark's gospel.
Matthew 5.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (sermon on the Mount)
Luke 16,17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (on the way to Peraea)
As one would expect from "Q" material (identifiable by markedly different use by Matthew and Luke) it does not appear in Mark, who has almost no 'sermon' material. Sometimes Mark 13.31 is referenced, but this is part of the talk on the mount of olives and is Synoptic original material, being found in Matthew 24.35 and Luke 21.33 and of course, all in the same context.
It is of course a puzzle how it should be interpreted. The Bible has Jesus toss the Laws in the bin left and right, mouthing the views of Paulinist Christians. There is (I recall) the idea in Matthew that Jesus was the fulfilment at his death which means that Law became obsolete at his death, but that doesn't fit what Matthew says. And maybe Luke has the original version, since he says it isn't easy but that doesn't mean that Jesus couldn't do it. He could have altered it, of course, seeing that it made no sense in the context of what the Christian Jesus had been shown to say.
A bit of a puzzle
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-08-2018 at 07:48 AM..
Matthew 5.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (sermon on the Mount)
Luke 16,17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (on the way to Peraea)
As one would expect from "Q" material (identifiable by markedly different use by Matthew and Luke) it does not appear in Mark, who has almost no 'sermon' material. Sometimes Mark 13.31 is referenced, but this is part of the talk on the mount of olives and is Synoptic original material, being found in Matthew 24.35 and Luke 21.33 and of course, all in the same context.
It is of course a puzzle how it should be interpreted. The Bible has Jesus toss the Laws in the bin left and right, mouthing the views of Paulinist Christians. There is (I recall) the idea in Matthew that Jesus was the fulfilment at his death which means that Law became obsolete at his death, but that doesn't fit what Matthew says. And maybe Luke has the original version, since he says it isn't easy but that doesn't mean that Jesus couldn't do it. He could have altered it, of course, seeing that it made no sense in the context of what the Christian Jesus had been shown to say.
A bit of a puzzle
In Matthew 5:18, 'fulfilled' is used by Christians to indicate Jesus fulfills prophecy, but the word is better translated as to come to be, to change state, or to be completed.
Matthew runs with the idea in all the synoptics that Jesus will return to his kingdom, so he is saying the laws remain until then (and possibly thereafter as well). The idea of the law becoming obsolete at the death of Jesus is a Christian idea, which as you point out makes no sense in context.
Mark 13.31 is taken from Isaiah 51:6 and 40:8, so is invention, not historical.
If you read Paul, he mentions the theological war between the Jewish sect of Christianity and his Gentile, bacon eating version. As Matthew is clearly a Jewish Christian gospel, then he is 'correcting' Mark's Pauline influenced theology, where the dietary and circumcision laws are dropped.
Luke rewrites Matthew because he likes bacon and intact jewelry*. So he is writing what Matthew actually meant, . Luke is writing around the time of the Marcionite crisis, and as in Acts is trying to present a united Christianity.
* ******* in German, means something completely different to Jews.
In Matthew 5:18, 'fulfilled' is used by Christians to indicate Jesus fulfills prophecy, but the word is better translated as to come to be, to change state, or to be completed.
Matthew runs with the idea in all the synoptics that Jesus will return to his kingdom, so he is saying the laws remain until then (and possibly thereafter as well). The idea of the law becoming obsolete at the death of Jesus is a Christian idea, which as you point out makes no sense in context.
Mark 13.31 is taken from Isaiah 51:6 and 40:8, so is invention, not historical.
If you read Paul, he mentions the theological war between the Jewish sect of Christianity and his Gentile, bacon eating version. As Matthew is clearly a Jewish Christian gospel, then he is 'correcting' Mark's Pauline influenced theology, where the dietary and circumcision laws are dropped.
Luke rewrites Matthew because he likes bacon and intact jewelry*. So he is writing what Matthew actually meant, . Luke is writing around the time of the Marcionite crisis, and as in Acts is trying to present a united Christianity.
* ******* in German, means something completely different to Jews.
Generally yes. 'Fulfilled' seems to reflect the idea that the Law won't be changed (God's Law, see>) until Jesus dies and is resurrected and the law suddenly becomes replaced by Paulinist Christianity. This is the Christian take and I think heaven and earth passing away is impressive sounding but actually not a bit like The Jewish law will endure until the end of time (except that Jesus abolished it by his death and resurrection).
As you know i don't think Luke can have copied Matthew, but let's not do it all over again. But I may consider (despite his evident loathing for Jewry) that Matthew is indeed a Jewish Christian. At one time i thought that his reading the Septuagint (Greek) meant that he had to be Greek, but recently Mike 555 persuaded me that the Septuagint may be more like the Hebrew Torah of Jesus' day than the present Hebrew Torah is.
Mark's contribution, like Luke and Matthew (all the same) is synoptic original, but 'invention' whether it is claims based on OT passages or pulled out of a Christian hat is still like to be invention in my view. I'm just saying that 'my words will not pass away' is Synoptic and 'the law will not pass away'; is not in Mark and only common to Luke and Matthew and is a different 'origin', whether as i claim, it's Q, or as you claim, Luke is copying an individual idea of Matthew.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-08-2018 at 04:44 PM..
What is the point in "defeating" an atheist? Why not just let them believe how they wish? Christians would be happier if they didn't try to convert everyone or beat them down into submission.
Live and let live.
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