Isn't it bizarre humans still believe in God? (miracle, legislation, religions)
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Why did God create us?” Everyone would acknowledge that our body parts, such as our eyes, ears, brains and hearts, have a purpose. Wouldn’t it then make sense that the individual, as a whole, also has a purpose? God, the All Wise, did not create us to simply wander aimlessly or to only fulfil our basic instincts and desires. Rather, God describes this life as a test. Every person is being tested as to who will choose to acknowledge God and follow His guidance.
Do you have any verifiable evidence for this 'God' that you speak off...and which 'God', out of the hundreds that are claimed to exist, are you referring to anyway?
Do you have any verifiable evidence for this 'God' that you speak off...and which 'God', out of the hundreds that are claimed to exist, are you referring to anyway?
For the nth time, it doesn't work this way.
The mindset which demands evidence of God will never find one.
Here are the two big reasons.
1 - You and combined knowledge of ALL humanity cannot define what would you consider as an evidence of God, and how will you validate it? You can't !
2 - The existence of God is FAITH and faith is NOT based on evidence.
God is recognized by his signs. And these signs make sense ONLY to those who try to genuinely find God.
The KEY here is, whether you start with affirmation or denial.
If you start with the denial that there is no God, then NO MATTER WHAT proof or evidence is presented to you, and no matter what logical reasoning is provided to you, you will ALWAYS find a way to dismiss the evidence/proof/logic/reason.
Even if God comes face to face to you, you will probably say, "This can't be true. I am dreaming".
On the other hand, when you start with a positive that, Yes God exists and I need/want God in my life, so let me try to look for God, then you cross the line and join the camp of believers. Which brings us to your genuine question. There are 100's of Gods, which one is it?
And here is the answer.
No one should tell you which one is it. It's YOUR call.
Once one decides to take this journey of finding God, he uses his own intelligence and his own logic to do his own research to analyze the signs of God to either reject or accept them, and then form his faith.
There are people who consider a cow or a monkey, a rat, a snake or an elephant as God and they worship them. Others may consider stone, clay mud and wooden statues as Gods. Some (in Nepal) even consider a human as God and they worship her. Some consider Moon or sun or stars or fire as God, and they worship them.
If your logic, intelligence and research tells you that one or more of theses entities is/are God, then you can submit yourself, and start worshipping them - otherwise you can reject them and move on with your quest.
Remember, the brain does the research part, but the call to faith comes from the heart.
IMO, the logical way to find God (IF AND ONLY IF one is looking for God) is as follows.
You make and follow one basic rule.
A God of any faith under your research will be judged by his message
You then start your research by picking any religion of your choice and start reading and analyzing its holy text to understand the message. And while you go through the message, you periodically ask yourself this key question, "Is it the truth?"
And you let your heart, honestly answer.
This method should help you find the one that talks to your heart and reject the rest.
But then again, its only and only when YOU decide to find God because you believe that you want/need God in your life.
Otherwise you can choose to live in the camp of deniers/Atheists. There is no compulsion either way.
However, please know that those who demand evidence of God, never find one.
We should use our intelligence and logic to make wise choices that are based on free will because in the end, we will be responsible for our choices.
Completely back to front, old son. There are so many different and indeed crafty and evasive definitions of God or "God" that it is needful for the person putting the god -claim to say what they mean by it. We could of course give a whole list of definitions including the one we are talking about, and the claimant could say which one it was or "Not any of those" and then -as they should have done to start off with - say what they mean by it. I have told you this before, but in true Theist fashion, you don't listen (1) but trot out the same debunked argument all over again.
Just as you do with the "Closed -minded Atheist Denial" ploy.
If God -belief doesn't validate through any decent evidence of any kind, you can't blame us for not believing it. Faith is not a good reason for believing anything. And in actual practice, the believers are always presenting "evidence" to validate their god claim, and the reason we reject it is -because it is rubbish as far as evidence goes. To say that this is closed minded denial on our part ("If you start with the denial that there is no God,") is simply the habitual dishonest and fallacious logic habitually employed by theist apologists to justify why they cannot produce any decent evidence.
We already did the defining of evidence. The problem is that the evidence that would convince ought to have been there long ago and it is too late now, unless some undeniable miracle should happen. I already told you how you could pray for a very simple miracle that would convert me instantly and you didn't even comment on it.
I know why - because deep down, you know it wouldn't work, and that really there is no god there and it is faith -based delusion on your part.
I am convinced that the hedging, evasion, dodging and trickery that is the stock in trade rhetoric of theist apologetics comes from the deep -inside suppressed and denied knowledge that their arguments are rubbish and their faith is without valid foundation.
They also know that Faith is NOT a good reason to believe or they wouldn't try to produce evidence and then revert to relying on Faith when it is shown up to be inadequate
(1) as Northsouth related in a recent post and I heard in an old penpal deconversion story 'I didn't listen; I just argued"
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-24-2017 at 03:47 AM..
The mindset which demands evidence of God will never find one.
How convenient.
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Here are the two big reasons.
1 - You and combined knowledge of ALL humanity cannot define what would you consider as an evidence of God, and how will you validate it? You can't !
Sure I can. How about poverty, starvation and all incurable disease disappearing overnight together with a sign painted on every single door of every single house on the planet - at the same moment- saying something like...'I, Jesus the Christian man-god have done this.'
That would convince me and I dare say, everyone else on the planet too.
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2 - The existence of God is FAITH and faith is NOT based on evidence.
Yes...and we all know what a useless and idiotic thing 'faith' is. You, like all theists, think that faith is a good thing! Something to be looked up to. Something to be applauded...but it isn't. In fact it is the most idiotic, ludicrous and dumb-headed thing that one could EVER accept as a valid way of believing something... and ironically, you recognise that in your everyday life because, in your everyday life there is not one thing, NOT ONE SINGLE THING, that you would, even remotely, not even for one minute, rely on as being true - on nothing more than 'faith'....other than your god belief.
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God is recognized by his signs. And these signs make sense ONLY to those who try to genuinely find God.
Same for Odin and his followers. Why should I believe you and not them?
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The KEY here is, whether you start with affirmation or denial.
Well we know that you start with confirmation bias with regard to your god when the logical thing would be to start with the default position of non-belief, just like you start with non-belief regarding a lion living under your bed - because there is no evidence for one being there. You do that with no problem whatsoever don't you? Yet if you really, really wanted there to be a lion living under your bed, you'd be telling people that there was one there - but that it was invisible to all but those who really wanted to genuinely find the lion. And you know my friend. I you really did manage to convince some deluded soul that there was a lion there, that fool would be out in the streets next day swearing that you had a lion under your bed.
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If you start with the denial that there is no God, then NO MATTER WHAT proof or evidence is presented to you, and no matter what logical reasoning is provided to you, you will ALWAYS find a way to dismiss the evidence/proof/logic/reason.
That is absolute rubbish and it's a well know cop-out that theists use to excuse the fact that they don't have any proof or evidence.[quote]
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Even if God comes face to face to you, you will probably say, "This can't be true. I am dreaming".
Again, absolute balderdash because your god would have methods that would leave us in no doubt...such as I described above.
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On the other hand, when you start with a positive that, Yes God exists and I need/want God in my life, so let me try to look for God, then you cross the line and join the camp of believers.
Yes, that's true. Once you convince yourself that something is true then you will see signs of it's 'truth' everywhere and join the believers camp..but that works for all the other gods too - so how do we know that those gods aren't as real as yours. It even works for leprechauns or mermaids you know!
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Which brings us to your genuine question. There are 100's of Gods, which one is it?
And here is the answer. No one should tell you which one is it. It's YOUR call.
Once one decides to take this journey of finding God, he uses his own intelligence and his own logic to do his own research to analyze the signs of God to either reject or accept them, and then form his faith. There are people who consider a cow or a monkey, a rat, a snake or an elephant as God and they worship them. Others may consider stone, clay mud and wooden statues as Gods. Some (in Nepal) even consider a human as God and they worship her. Some consider Moon or sun or stars or fire as God, and they worship them.
If your logic, intelligence and research tells you that one or more of theses entities is/are God, then you can submit yourself, and start worshipping them - otherwise you can reject them and move on with your quest.
Ah right! So you are saying that god belief has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with which particular flavour of god that you like!!
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IMO, the logical way to find God (IF AND ONLY IF one is looking for God) is as follows.
You make and follow one basic rule.
A God of any faith under your research will be judged by his message
You then start your research by picking any religion of your choice and start reading and analyzing its holy text to understand the message. And while you go through the message, you periodically ask yourself this key question, "Is it the truth?"
And you let your heart, honestly answer.
...but how do you know you are correct? Supposing I read the Vedas. I analyse the holy text, understand the message, decide that it's true and conclude that Ganesh is the one true god? Why would you say that I'm wrong and you are right. You see, what you are telling us to do is exactly what we did do. We examined the theist claims. We analysed the claimed 'evidence' and we analysed the holy texts and... we found them to be false. Why are we wrong and you right?
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But then again, its only and only when YOU decide to find God because you believe that you want/need God in your life.
Again, it's nothing more than deciding that it's true for no other reason than...you really, really do WANT it to be.
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However, please know that those who demand evidence of God, never find one.
Why am I not surprised!
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We should use our intelligence and logic to make wise choices that are based on free will because in the end, we will be responsible for our choices
Yes. That's exactly what atheists do. So, explain to me again, why aren't you atheist?
Well, let's check the Theist = English dictionary.
low IQ, (anyone who does not believe what I believe is stupid)
free thinking, (believing - on Faith - one particular unknown as fact)
lonely, (joining the huge atheist conspiracy for companionship - see also "insignificance of atheism")
into networking, ( see above)
controlling others, (see above)
into being controlled, (see above)
Scientism, (believing in the validated results of science, rather than faith based fantasy, fallacy and fabrication).
Does that help?
Not really. I wouldn't want to live in a world where sane people didn't have the decency oppose the publicly approved mental illness that is religion. If the human species evolved enough brain power and compassion to leave religion behind in the dust where it belongs so-called anti-religion would be happily abandoned as an unnecessary relic. That about describes religion too, an unnecessary relic.
Completely back to front, old son. There are so many different and indeed crafty and evasive definitions of God or "God" that it is needful for the person putting the god -claim to say what they mean by it. We could of course give a whole list of definitions including the one we are talking about, and the claimant could say which one it was or "Not any of those" and then -as they should have done to start off with - say what they mean by it. I have told you this before, but in true Theist fashion, you don't listen (1) but trot out the same debunked argument all over again.
Just as you do with the "Closed -minded Atheist Denial" ploy.
If God -belief doesn't validate through any decent evidence of any kind, you can't blame us for not believing it. Faith is not a good reason for believing anything. And in actual practice, the believers are always presenting "evidence" to validate their god claim, and the reason we reject it is -because it is rubbish as far as evidence goes. To say that this is closed minded denial on our part ("If you start with the denial that there is no God,") is simply the habitual dishonest and fallacious logic habitually employed by theist apologists to justify why they cannot produce any decent evidence.
We already did the defining of evidence. The problem is that the evidence that would convince ought to have been there long ago and it is too late now, unless some undeniable miracle should happen. I already told you how you could pray for a very simple miracle that would convert me instantly and you didn't even comment on it.
I know why - because deep down, you know it wouldn't work, and that really there is no god there and it is faith -based delusion on your part.
I am convinced that the hedging, evasion, dodging and trickery that is the stock in trade rhetoric of theist apologetics comes from the deep -inside suppressed and denied knowledge that their arguments are rubbish and their faith is without valid foundation.
They also know that Faith is NOT a good reason to believe or they wouldn't try to produce evidence and then revert to relying on Faith when it is shown up to be inadequate
(1) as Northsouth related in a recent post and I heard in an old penpal deconversion story 'I didn't listen; I just argued"
Religion and faith has been around for what? Tens and thousands of years?
Please use simple basic logic to ponder on this question.
If there was an evidence/proof then it would've been out in the open by now for everyone to see. It's been tens and thousands of years. Where the heck is the evidence ??????
But since there is no evidence, it has never been presented.
So it's an oxymoronic approach to demand an evidence because you already know, there isn't one.
And why there isn't one?
As stated before,
1 - You can't define the evidence, and you are not equipped with the knowledge validate it.
2 - Believing in God faith. And faith by definition is not based on evidence.
But that's perhaps not the issue here.
Look at these two points below.
A- I am a believer and you don't seem like to approve my choice.
B - I am telling you that if you are someone who denies the existence of God based on the logic that, "because there is no evidence" - then I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. You can and you should remain an Athesit as much as you want. However, the logic you are using to arrive at your conclusion is not the logic used by those who have faith. Simple as that.
This just boggles my mind how such a large percentage of the population goes to church to worship a God that doesn't exist and shows absolutely no signs of existing. Its just so primitive. Realistically it seems like once humans became smart enough to build things, have reasoning skills, write, speak, create civilizations, we would have reached the level of intelligence to realize there is no God. I just don't get it.
I would assume that the knowledge of the universe would have PROVEN God existed once the big bang was established as fact, I would think that was proof enough.
It's not about convenience. It's pretty much a fact. Those who demand an evidence of God, do not find one.
Try giving me a few examples otherwise.
Show me a few people, who demanded an evidence of God, they were then presented with the evidence, or they found the evidence on their own, and then they became believers.
Do you know of any one like this? No, you don't. Because if you do, then you should be a believer because now you already know that the evidence is there and someone has found it. You can't be and you shouldn't be an Atheist anymore, in all honesty.
And obviously, you will come back and say, an evidence for someone is not an evidence for me. So I have own definition of evidence. And here it comes... ::: drum beats ::::
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Sure I can. How about poverty, starvation and all incurable disease disappearing overnight together with a sign painted on every single door of every single house on the planet - at the same moment- saying something like...'I, Jesus the Christian man-god have done this.'
That would convince me and I dare say, everyone else on the planet too
.
lol haha.
I thought you were a man of verifiable evidences, no?
Let's say, whatever you are asking for, is done. Tell me how are you going to verify and validate that it was actually done by God? You can't.
Guess what you are asking for instead of an evidence?
You are asking for a miracle. And miracles can't be proven or verified by science.
Otherwise, you must be able to scientifically explain the mechanism and processes that resulted in removal of all misery from planet earth - and how every single door got stamped?
You have two problems to deal with.
1 - If you are able to scientifically explain it then you don't need God. And it's not a miracle either. Because you can then do it on your own. You will have the know-how and verifiable scientific knowledge to remove all misery from earth in a heart beat, and you will be able to stamp everydoor with the message of your liking. Why would you need God?
2 - Since you can't scientifically explain the scenario of how all misery was removed and how all doors got stamped, you should not believe in it either. Remember, you were a man of verifiable evidences and proves?
So, IMO, it's an ultra oxymoronic approach, for a person who believes in evidences and proofs, to demand a miracle.
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Yes...and we all know what a useless and idiotic thing 'faith' is. You, like all theists, think that faith is a good thing! Something to be looked up to. Something to be applauded...but it isn't. In fact it is the most idiotic, ludicrous and dumb-headed thing that one could EVER accept as a valid way of believing something... and ironically, you recognise that in your everyday life because, in your everyday life there is not one thing, NOT ONE SINGLE THING, that you would, even remotely, not even for one minute, rely on as being true - on nothing more than 'faith'....other than your god belief.
Incidentally not.
You might wanna check the dictionary to find the meaning of faith.
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Same for Odin and his followers. Why should I believe you and not them?
Very rudimentary approach.
No sir, it's YOUR call whether you want to believe in A or B or C or Odin or Cow. Your call, your choice and you will be responsible for it.
.
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Yes, that's true. Once you convince yourself that something is true then you will see signs of it's 'truth' everywhere and join the believers camp..but that works for all the other gods too - so how do we know that those gods aren't as real as yours. It even works for leprechauns or mermaids you know!
Ah right! So you are saying that god belief has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with which particular flavour of god that you like!!
...but how do you know you are correct? Supposing I read the Vedas. I analyse the holy text, understand the message, decide that it's true and conclude that Ganesh is the one true god? Why would you say that I'm wrong and you are right. You see, what you are telling us to do is exactly what we did do. We examined the theist claims.
Yes. That's exactly what atheists do. So, explain to me again, why aren't you atheist?
If you want to believe in leprechauns or in vedas or in whatever, that's YOUR call, you are responsible for it. Everyone is on its own.
And I am not an Atheist because my logic tells me that the entire universe and everything in it, could have come along on its own. Now you may believe otherwise, and I don't have a problem with it.
Religion and faith has been around for what? Tens and thousands of years?
Please use simple basic logic to ponder on this question.
If there was an evidence/proof then it would've been out in the open by now for everyone to see. It's been tens and thousands of years. Where the heck is the evidence ??????
But since there is no evidence, it has never been presented.
So it's an oxymoronic approach to demand an evidence because you already know, there isn't one.
And why there isn't one?
As stated before,
1 - You can't define the evidence, and you are not equipped with the knowledge validate it.
2 - Believing in God faith. And faith by definition is not based on evidence.
But that's perhaps not the issue here.
Look at these two points below.
A- I am a believer and you don't seem like to approve my choice.
B - I am telling you that if you are someone who denies the existence of God based on the logic that, "because there is no evidence" - then I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. You can and you should remain an Athesit as much as you want. However, the logic you are using to arrive at your conclusion is not the logic used by those who have faith. Simple as that.
But you don't seem to happy either way.
I am deliriously happy both ways, old splint. since the evidence is not to hand, I do not believe the claim. That makes atheism the default automatically. If you accept that, I am as I say, happy as larry.
That being so, no, I can't approve your choice to believe what doesn't have the evidence to support it, but that's your call.
What I do have a problem with are those who want to see the country run according to the preferences and beliefs of those who believe without a good reason, which is to say, even more than it is now, up to and including cutting out of education scientific theories that DO have very compelling evidence. I have a problem with those who decry, demonize and try to disenfranchise people they disapprove of - gays for one; atheists for another.
I have a problem with you, old tomato, because you pop up and appear to try to tell us that there is something wrong in our reasoning and logical position, and it is you, old beansprout, who has the illogical and invalid belief.
That being so, I am understandably not going to keep schtumm and let you get away with it .
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-24-2017 at 04:59 PM..
I would assume that the knowledge of the universe would have PROVEN God existed once the big bang was established as fact, I would think that was proof enough.
Not really. Sure, a god could have done the Big bang, but until we can rule out that there might have been another cause, Goddunnit is not the default option. especially as the universe thereafter shows no real sign of the hand and foot of an intelligent designer and a few compelling clues that there isn't one.
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