Isn't it bizarre humans still believe in God? (Jehovah, genesis, churches)
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There is zero onus upon the Defence to present evidence in a trial. The defense only has to discredit or to create doubt about the evidence. It is the State or Crown whose duty is and has the resources to conduct a search for evidence. You make a claim that X is true, I do not have to prove it false but for you to prove it true.
Now if one is to make the claim that God does not exist the onus would be to prove your claim. I for one would be uncertain of where I could come up with the evidence to prove that I do not believe there is evidence for a God.
Exactly. While atheist apologetics does have a responsibility to say why it doesn't accept the evidence put forward by religious apologetics, it has no responsibility to prove the atheist viewpoint, because that remains the default position if the god -claims fail to meet their burden of proof.
This just boggles my mind how such a large percentage of the population goes to church to worship a God that doesn't exist and shows absolutely no signs of existing. Its just so primitive. Realistically it seems like once humans became smart enough to build things, have reasoning skills, write, speak, create civilizations, we would have reached the level of intelligence to realize there is no God. I just don't get it.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
There must be a reason for it.
The reason is government.
Religion and government were once heavily intertwined to the point of being inseparable.
It was taught that the rulers were gods, then slowly a shift in paradigm where rulers were appointed by god.
That was true up until about the 1800s when the paradigm shifted again.
Once you decouple Religion from State, the Religion collapses under its own weight. We've seen that countless times, most notably, in the Roman Empire.
Once Emperor Theodosius outlawed all religions except christianity, then christianity became the de facto religion of the Empire.
With the destruction of the [Western] Empire and the rise of nation-States, you have the Papacy playing the role of king-maker. Pope Leo condemns Americans to eternal hell for electing their presidents instead of consulting with the popes on who should rule America. Read Humanus Genus, a Papal Bull issued by Pope Leo.
"The principles of social science follow. Here naturalists teach that men have all the same rights and are perfectly equal in condition; that every man is naturally independent; that no one has a right to command others; that it is tyranny to keep men subject to any other authority than that which emanates from themselves. Hence the people are sovereign; those who rule have no authority but by the commission and concession of the people; so that they can be deposed, willing or unwilling according to the wishes of the people. The origin of all rights and civil duties is in the people or the State, which is ruled according to the new principles of liberty. The State must be godless; no reason why one religion ought to be preferred to another; all to be held in the same esteem."
As the US decouples from Religion, the number of people who believe in god decreases. That's been the case ever since school prayer was rejected by the Supreme Court.
Once a Religion loses government backing, if falls by the wayside eventually. We've seen that happen time and time again in the Ancient World, we see it happening in the Modern Era, and we're watching it happen now.
If you remove God in society, what incentive is there to be kind?
Do unto others and basic common sense.
Or you can chalk it up to a Cost/Benefit Analysis. It costs less to be good than it does to be bad/evil.
Morality is Objective. It is not dependent upon the knower. Murder is wrong whether you believe so or not, and even if you never existed, murder would still be wrong.
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Originally Posted by Jobster
What's the point of being atheist then?
To be correct.
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Originally Posted by Jobster
With no God, life is a zero-sum game.
Life is a zero-sum game with god.
You're merely an animal like any other animal, except that you're bipedal, have an opposable thumb, and have the capacity to think; even the capacity to foresee the consequences of your actions or the actions of others. You don't have a soul.
Your lot in life is nothing but a game of chance. You play the hand that you're dealt, and when you die, it's all over. There's no Heaven and no After-Life. You just simply cease to be. That's a good reason to "Do unto others..."
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Originally Posted by Jobster
Please point out anywhere in the Gospel where Christ said it was okay to HATE people.
Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.
So said the charlatan Jesus who could never answer a question with a straight-forward answer.
You're merely an animal like any other animal, except that you're bipedal, have an opposable thumb, and have the capacity to think; even the capacity to foresee the consequences of your actions or the actions of others.
No, Hanni. Jesus came to stand against the Barbaric BELIEFS of our ancestors ABOUT our Father. The prophets were fallible human beings only SOME of whom were true prophets. Our ancestors did not TEST the spirit of what was written because they did not know what the standard of truth was until Jesus. Everyone IS saved because our species' flaw was permanently corrected by the existence and achievements of Jesus. BUT we will still reap whatever we sow and do not sincerely repent of and try to correct. You don't have a soul. [/quote] This reveals a shallowness of thought - the very trait you so cavalierly discount - which cannot be explained by a materialist/reductionist paradigm. Until the phenomenon that enables you "to think; even the capacity to foresee the consequences of your actions or the actions of others" is explained you can NOT proclaim that we "don't have a soul."
No, Hanni. Jesus came to stand against the Barbaric BELIEFS of our ancestors ABOUT our Father. The prophets were fallible human beings only SOME of whom were true prophets. Our ancestors did not TEST the spirit of what was written because they did not know what the standard of truth was until Jesus. Everyone IS saved because our species' flaw was permanently corrected by the existence and achievements of Jesus. BUT we will still reap whatever we sow and do not sincerely repent of and try to correct. You don't have a soul.
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This reveals a shallowness of thought - the very trait you so cavalierly discount - which cannot be explained by a materialist/reductionist paradigm. Until the phenomenon that enables you "to think; even the capacity to foresee the consequences of your actions or the actions of others" is explained you can NOT proclaim that we "don't have a soul."
No. You don't know that Jesus came o stand against any such thing -you only believe it.
You fall into the logical trap of Unexplaineds prove ...whatever you believe on faith, plus ignoring what we can explain on the grounds that we can't explain everything 100%. This is not shallowness of thought on our part, but woodenness of thought on yours in fielding illogical objections to anything that conflicts with what you believe on faith.
The objection to the flat claim that "we don't have a soul" is excusable. Even though we have explained the caveat that ought to be in there without having to be typed: "So far as all the evidence convinces us".
We might indeed have a soul, but we don't know and there are some good reasons to doubt it.
where did the universe come from? Everywhere you look there are signs that God exists. The flowers, plants, fruit, the sky, the ocean, animal, our bodies, the solar system. It did not create itself ... same as the wall in your house, it did not build itself. The universe is like a big rock, it is without a beginning and an end
where did the universe come from? Everywhere you look there are signs that God exists. The flowers, plants, fruit, the sky, the ocean, animal, our bodies, the solar system. It did not create itself ... same as the wall in your house, it did not build itself. The universe is like a big rock, it is without a beginning and an end
Well, it was obvious that your 'Questions for Atheists' thread was yet another reiteration of the silly God of the Gaps 'argument'. But I thought I'd wait for you to show your obvious hand. It didn't take long.
I'll tell you a story I've related on numerous other times a newbie has waltzed in thinking 'Ha! I bet them silly atheists have never heard this one! This'll stump 'em good!'...
If you'd been an ancient Egyptian, you'd have asked your question about the bright, warm orb that crossed the sky every day. We call it the Sun - they called it Ra, the solar deity. How else could they explain it? They were ignorant of gravity and Newtonian mechanics, and so could not model the solar system, or even understand that it existed. They knew nothing of fusion. The only way they could explain the Sun was to make up a story about it. Of course, they could have prudently stated that they did not know, and await until the acquired the means to figure it out. But, alas, they lacked the self-discipline. Collectively, people invariably do. Happily, some individuals refuse to follow the herd.
Now we understand the Sun and stars in general. Not perfectly, of course, but there is no great mystery to their existence. And this proves the GodDidIt! claim regarding the Sun to be laughably wrong. See, that's the problem with the whole GodDidIt! idea - if you uphold that tenet, then every time a mystery is solved, the existence of God takes a hit. Hint: this is why more thoughtful theologians - at least, the ones who aren't intentionally pandering to the overly credulous - have no use for such a fallacy.
Comparing houses to, say, an oak tree or a tuna, is nonsensical. I know my house did not build itself because houses do not reproduce. Oak trees and tuna do reproduce. Furthermore, people - ie, house-builders - exist and are known to build houses. Deities are are merely asserted to exist, with no more supporting evidence than 'Look! A banana! That proves God - not just any deity but my favorite one - exists!'. Sheer nonsense. It's as vacuous as saying that lightning proves the existence of Thor, or that rainbows prove the existence of leprechauns.
As an aside, as has been pointed out countless times, the First Cause bit doesn't work because it requires us to accept a certain premise - that everything must have a cause - while simultaneously accepting that God is not required to have a cause, which instantly neuters the entire premise of the bit. It's no more tenable than just accepting that the universe (or, more specifically, matter) need not have a cause, and pointlessly more complex.
Thanks for playing. But be advised that we've heard it all before.
Religion and government were once heavily intertwined to the point of being inseparable.
It was taught that the rulers were gods, then slowly a shift in paradigm where rulers were appointed by god.
That was true up until about the 1800s when the paradigm shifted again.
Once you decouple Religion from State, the Religion collapses under its own weight. We've seen that countless times, most notably, in the Roman Empire.
Once Emperor Theodosius outlawed all religions except christianity, then christianity became the de facto religion of the Empire.
With the destruction of the [Western] Empire and the rise of nation-States, you have the Papacy playing the role of king-maker. Pope Leo condemns Americans to eternal hell for electing their presidents instead of consulting with the popes on who should rule America. Read Humanus Genus, a Papal Bull issued by Pope Leo.
"The principles of social science follow. Here naturalists teach that men have all the same rights and are perfectly equal in condition; that every man is naturally independent; that no one has a right to command others; that it is tyranny to keep men subject to any other authority than that which emanates from themselves. Hence the people are sovereign; those who rule have no authority but by the commission and concession of the people; so that they can be deposed, willing or unwilling according to the wishes of the people. The origin of all rights and civil duties is in the people or the State, which is ruled according to the new principles of liberty. The State must be godless; no reason why one religion ought to be preferred to another; all to be held in the same esteem."
As the US decouples from Religion, the number of people who believe in god decreases. That's been the case ever since school prayer was rejected by the Supreme Court.
Once a Religion loses government backing, if falls by the wayside eventually. We've seen that happen time and time again in the Ancient World, we see it happening in the Modern Era, and we're watching it happen now.
where did the universe come from? Everywhere you look there are signs that God exists. The flowers, plants, fruit, the sky, the ocean, animal, our bodies, the solar system. It did not create itself ... same as the wall in your house, it did not build itself. The universe is like a big rock, it is without a beginning and an end
Unsettomati nailed that one, too. As has been stated, while we do not know how or why the universe came to be, we do know that trying to prove an intelligent designer using the 'Watchmaker' analogy does not work. Natural processes do not need a designer other than evolutionary or geographical shaping. We cannot rule out an intelligent creator right at the beginning, but from then on, we pretty much can.
where did the universe come from? Everywhere you look there are signs that God exists. The flowers, plants, fruit, the sky, the ocean, animal, our bodies, the solar system. It did not create itself ... same as the wall in your house, it did not build itself. The universe is like a big rock, it is without a beginning and an end
By this same logic, God must have been created in order to exist. Who created God (besides man )?
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