Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am not saying conspiracies never exist. Perhaps, the most provable one was the conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. The problem is that doesn't mean all presidential assassinations were the result of conspiracies.
I think most of us are just tired. Tired of constantly hearing some new conspiracy theory about the JFK Assassination and wondering why its happening--now--sixty years after the deed occurred.
It seems more than coincidental that Reiner is speaking out sixty years to the date after the assassination. I don't think the motive is money. I think the motive is craving attention. I wonder what theory will come out on the 100th anniversary? I'm glad I won't be around to hear it. These things have greater lives than our own.
Attention? I don’t think the JFK assassination is all that big of a topic in 2023. The vast majority of the people who cared about this event are long in the ground.
I think Reiner and Stone could garner much more attention by putting out other projects on other subjects.
Most Americans have never even heard of Oswald or any other person associated with this event. They know JFK was president and he got shot. That’s the extent of their knowledge. They don’t want to know anything more and they certainly won’t watch anything put out on the subject.
I believe Reiner and Stone and many others have a genuine interest in the JFK assassination. They are doing it because they were alive when it happened and they were deeply moved by what happened. It was a defining moment in their lives back when they were in high school.
But what truly draws them in to this topic is that once you do the research, it is so blatantly obvious that there is much, much more going on than just a lone wolf nut job.
Most Americans have never even heard of Oswald or any other person associated with this event. They know JFK was president and he got shot. That’s the extent of their knowledge. They don’t want to know anything more and they certainly won’t watch anything put out on the subject.
I believe Reiner and Stone and many others have a genuine interest in the JFK assassination. They are doing it because they were alive when it happened and they were deeply moved by what happened. It was a defining moment in their lives back when they were in high school.
But what truly draws them in to this topic is that once you do the research, it is so blatantly obvious that there is much, much more going on than just a lone wolf
I think there are millions of Americans who remember the assassination — we watched Ruby shoot Oswald live on TV. Many recall the funeral procession — I remember the muffled drum cadence and the front line of mourners heading to Arlington. We are 60 years after the fact and it is etched in our memories. Those born 20 years or more afterward have little understanding of the context and events of that time. I’m roughly the same age as Reiner. I’m still waiting for his exposé on the Putin/Trump relationship. I’m not sure he is a reliable source. JFK inspired a huge cohort of young people to enter public service and even join the Peace Corps. His assassination was a shocking benchmark in their lives and changed history.
My twenty years in criminal justice and prison administration tells me that a “lone wolf” is absolutely capable of such a deed, or worse. It is also absolutely possible for the FBI or local law enforcement to miss the cues and dismiss someone as a potential danger. It still happens. People today watching CSI or Law & Order should not think that the standards of criminal justice investigations were as thorough or complete in 1963 as they have become. Officer Tippet, if he was a typical police officer, had a 10th grade education. If something was missed or botched, that does not automatically point to a conspiracy.
I think there are millions of Americans who remember the assassination — we watched Ruby shoot Oswald live on TV. Many recall the funeral procession — I remember the muffled drum cadence and the front line of mourners heading to Arlington. We are 60 years after the fact and it is etched in our memories. Those born 20 years or more afterward have little understanding of the context and events of that time. I’m roughly the same age as Reiner. I’m still waiting for his exposé on the Putin/Trump relationship. I’m not sure he is a reliable source. JFK inspired a huge cohort of young people to enter public service and even join the Peace Corps. His assassination was a shocking benchmark in their lives and changed history.
My twenty years in criminal justice and prison administration tells me that a “lone wolf” is absolutely capable of such a deed, or worse. It is also absolutely possible for the FBI or local law enforcement to miss the cues and dismiss someone as a potential danger. It still happens. People today watching CSI or Law & Order should not think that the standards of criminal justice investigations were as thorough or complete in 1963 as they have become. Officer Tippet, if he was a typical police officer, had a 10th grade education. If something was missed or botched, that does not automatically point to a conspiracy.
I don’t believe you have looked close enough at the evidence if you think there is enough there to convict Oswald. “Being capable” isn’t even the right question to ask. Millions of people are capable of doing it.
But I need more then Brennan and Givens placing Oswald on the 6th floor, after they initially told police they weren’t sure it was Oswald (Brennan), or didn’t see him go up the stairs (Givens).
Other than these 2, there isn’t a single guy who can place Oswald on the 6th floor. Bonnie Raye Williams was up there for quite awhile and didn’t see anyone. Oswald hid silently just feet away for 30 minutes? That doesn’t work for me.
It bugs me that Baker was immediately inside the building and Lee is already downstairs drinking a coke.
It’s a known fact that both the CIA and FBI were monitoring Oswald’s mail. Actually, the mail monitoring was redacted for decades until it was released. So I’m supposed to believe that both the FBI and the CIA are so grossly incompetent that they let a guy under their surveillance get a rifle and a handgun shipped to him using an alias? Also, not a single postal worker remembers delivering a rifle? Rifles come in odd packaging compared to normal boxes, so I don’t believe that not a single postal worker wouldn’t remember it. Sorry, but none of that works for me.
I’m not going to rehash the dozens of other data points that also don’t make any sense, other than the Tippit incident doesn’t make sense either. I do believe Oswald was at the Tippit murder, though. There are many theories as to what Oswald was doing after 1230, and we might never know what he was really doing. But I don’t believe he randomly shot JFK, left the TSBD, got on a bus, jumped off, then got in a taxi, ran inside his room, ran back out, waited at the bus stop, then started walking the other way, ran into Tippit, murdered him, and fled to the theater and snuck in and didn’t pay for a ticket. Oswald was involved in something bigger.
But if all of that works for you, and you want to believe the Warren Report, so be it.
Attention? I don’t think the JFK assassination is all that big of a topic in 2023. The vast majority of the people who cared about this event are long in the ground.
I think Reiner and Stone could garner much more attention by putting out other projects on other subjects.
Most Americans have never even heard of Oswald or any other person associated with this event. They know JFK was president and he got shot. That’s the extent of their knowledge. They don’t want to know anything more and they certainly won’t watch anything put out on the subject.
I believe Reiner and Stone and many others have a genuine interest in the JFK assassination. They are doing it because they were alive when it happened and they were deeply moved by what happened. It was a defining moment in their lives back when they were in high school.
But what truly draws them in to this topic is that once you do the research, it is so blatantly obvious that there is much, much more going on than just a lone wolf nut job.
Reiner and Stone are nuts.
You originally asked the wrong question. The question is what evidence do you have that Oswald didn't act alone.
Sure the Warren Commission in trying to put a bow on everything raised doubts.
The real question for conspiracy theorists is whether Jack Ruby acted alone. What motivated him to go shoot Oswald?
You originally asked the wrong question. The question is what evidence do you have that Oswald didn't act alone.
Sure the Warren Commission in trying to put a bow on everything raised doubts.
The real question for conspiracy theorists is whether Jack Ruby acted alone. What motivated him to go shoot Oswald?
The widespread theory is that he was motivated to take revenge on Oswald, not as a party to a wider conspiracy. At the time Ruby was suffering from syphilis of the brain so that may have had something to do with his reasoning.
Last edited by mensaguy; 12-09-2023 at 05:52 AM..
Reason: Fixed quote
The widespread theory is that he was motivated to take revenge on Oswald, not as a party to a wider conspiracy. At the time Ruby was suffering from syphilis of the brain so that may have had something to do with his reasoning.
We need to be careful when we are looking at something that happened so long ago. We lose track of what standard practice might have been at the time and think in current expectations.
Ruby waltzed into the scene with a pistol and got close enough to shoot Oswald point blank on national TV. Surrounded by Dallas police who are apparently shocked that it happened. Surrounded by news men and TV cameras. Ruby was a known person in that police circle so nobody expected it. That was 1963.
In 1968, Sirhan Sirhan shoots RFK in a hotel hallway in close quarters with bodyguards and staff people. He had employee access and nobody expected it. He just brought a gun to work that day.
Today, after 9/11 and over 627 mass shootings so far this year, we might have tighter security in those close contact instances. We have higher security standards but we can't apply those standards to the 1960s.
Shootings in open public spaces (MLK, Wallace, Giffords) are much more difficult to stop.
Unfortunately for Marrs and other conspiracy authors, the logical problems with this whole argument are many and massive.
If the purpose of the "clean-up squad" is to eliminate people who have knowledge of a conspiracy, recruiting people into a "clean-up squad" is a counter-productive activity. Each person recruited becomes yet another person who has knowledge of a conspiracy and might "spill the beans."
Marrs' list is drawn from a pool of literally thousands of people — a few of whom had a clear connection with the assassination, many of whom had some tangential connection with the assassination, and some of whom had no connection with the assassination at all. For example, Marrs' list includes one woman who was one of Kennedy's mistresses, but had no known connection with the assassination. It includes a man who was mayor of New Orleans (but who had no known connection with the assassination), and it includes the Chief Steward on Air Force One!
The list includes people who were merely connected to the Mafia, the CIA, anti-Castro Cubans, or Time-Life, Incorporated. Marrs is assuming that all these groups were connected with the assassination. In other words, he assumes a conspiracy involving all these groups, tabulates deaths, and then announces that the large number of deaths supports the idea of a conspiracy! Circular logic.
Most well-known conspiracy witnesses and authors are still alive. For example, of the best-known conspiracy authors who wrote books in the 1960s, Edward J. Epstein and Josiah Thompson are still alive. Mark Lane died in 2016. Sylvia Meagher is dead, but not even Marrs lists her death as "suspicious." Penn Jones died in January 1998 in a nursing home at the age of 83 after a long struggle with Alzheimer's disease. Harold Weisberg likewise died in February of 2002 after a long period of failing health. The most prominent conspiracy authors from the 70s and early 80s like David Lifton, Robert Groden, Henry Hurt, and Anthony Summers are all still alive.
The star conspiracy witnesses who are seen in all the videos had long lives. Beverly Oliver is still alive. Malcolm Summers died on October 8, 2004, Ed Hoffman passed away in 2010. Jean Hill passed away on November 7, 2000. All three witnesses died after having decades to give their testimony to anybody who would listen, and not even their conspiracist supporters claim their deaths were sinister.
If a conspiracy was going around killing people who knew things that were dangerous to it, it would make sense that all the key witnesses would be killed quickly. But Marrs' list includes people who died as late as 1984. Given that many people associated with the assassination were at the peak of their professional careers at the time of the shooting, it's not surprising that many of them would have died within twenty years.
Marrs' list is laced with people who have a larger than average chance of a violent death: law officers, people on the edges of the underworld (strippers), people very much part of the underworld (Mafia figures), and people with a clear history of alcohol or drug abuse, or of mental illness (Rose Cheramie, Lou Staples, George de Mohrenschildt).
About half the people on Marrs' list died of natural causes. Marrs assures his readers that of course the CIA can kill people and make the death look "natural" (Crossfire, p. 556-557). This raises the question of why the conspirators allowed any of the deaths to seem violent or suspicious. It was also terribly convenient for supposed conspirators that so many of the people on the list who are claimed to have died of heart attacks (see below) had arteriosclerotic heart disease, making their deaths plausibly natural.
In virtually every case, there is no evidence that the person had any information on the assassination not already given in Warren Commission testimony, statements to police and the media, and interviews with private researchers. The logic seems to be that they must have known something, since, after all, they were killed.
People who supported the Warren Commission version of events, or whose testimony was used by the Warren Commission to help convict Oswald, are well-represented on the list. Why would a conspiracy want to kill off those people?
Many of these objections can be answered by positing on ongoing surveillance of witnesses. Maybe a witness, after many years of concealing the truth, has finally decided to go public and "blow the whistle." Conspirators, learning of this, then proceed to kill the person. What's wrong with this is obvious: it vastly complicates the problem discussed in 1. (above). For every witness who might potentially "spill the beans," a team of conspiracy operatives must keep a close surveillance in order to catch the moment when the person decides to talk, and then promptly kill the witness. This would require an entire army of assassins!
You originally asked the wrong question. The question is what evidence do you have that Oswald didn't act alone.
Sure the Warren Commission in trying to put a bow on everything raised doubts.
The real question for conspiracy theorists is whether Jack Ruby acted alone. What motivated him to go shoot Oswald?
The best theory for Ruby being involved in this conspiracy is as follows:
1). His nightclubs were in serious jeopardy of being shut down because he ran out of money. The mob bailed him out, but as everyone knows, those types of bailouts come with strings attached. He knew that someday the bill would come due on that.
2). The rogue CIA cell subcontracted the shooters through the mob, who were likely on the knoll. They brought in foreign shooters as they didn’t want any connection to the mob, the CIA, or Texas oil.
3). The plan all along was to pin it on “the Lone Wolf”, but that means you also need a clean-up operation to get rid of the patsy. Ironically, they had a plan ready to execute in Chicago 3 weeks before, and Thomas Vallee was going to be the lone wolf patsy, but JFK cancelled his trip to Chicago to watch the Army-Navy football game. Too big of a security threat.
4). After the shooting, and after they scooped up Oswald, they knew time was limited. Once Oswald was transferred out of the DPD, it would be infinitely harder to get to him. The CIA, again working through the mob, needed Oswald put down.
5). But who could do it? Ruby was the perfect guy. Beholden to the mob, likely already knew he was seriously ill and didn’t have much time left on earth, and had easy access to Oswald through his DPD connections.
6). Ruby was in a cell, and for a long while, he was cooperating, keeping his mouth shut about the larger conspiracy. But then, he started to slip, started speaking out of turn, making weird statements to hint that he knew something. Many theories suggest that Ruby did this because he didn’t want to die in a cell, and was trying to leverage his knowledge of the conspiracy in order to get free. Obviously, the American public would not have accepted Ruby being let free, and that would’ve made the conspiracy theorists even more suspicious.
7). So the CIA went to Dr. Louis West, an MK Ultra psychologist from Los Angeles. They directed him to go meet with Ruby to shut him up. The CIA fried Ruby’s brain. He was never the same after Dr. West “treated” him. He was incoherent. Nobody ever questions why an MK Ultra psychologist from LA is in Dallas, treating Ruby of all people. There were no psychologists within a thousand miles available to see Ruby?
So to sum up, I don’t believe Ruby acted alone. All Warren supporters believe that not only did Oswald act alone, Ruby also acted alone, and the Dr. West involvement is inconsequential, nothing to see here.
The best theory for Ruby being involved in this conspiracy is as follows:
1). His nightclubs were in serious jeopardy of being shut down because he ran out of money. The mob bailed him out, but as everyone knows, those types of bailouts come with strings attached. He knew that someday the bill would come due on that.
2). The rogue CIA cell subcontracted the shooters through the mob, who were likely on the knoll. They brought in foreign shooters as they didn’t want any connection to the mob, the CIA, or Texas oil.
3). The plan all along was to pin it on “the Lone Wolf”, but that means you also need a clean-up operation to get rid of the patsy. Ironically, they had a plan ready to execute in Chicago 3 weeks before, and Thomas Vallee was going to be the lone wolf patsy, but JFK cancelled his trip to Chicago to watch the Army-Navy football game. Too big of a security threat.
4). After the shooting, and after they scooped up Oswald, they knew time was limited. Once Oswald was transferred out of the DPD, it would be infinitely harder to get to him. The CIA, again working through the mob, needed Oswald put down.
5). But who could do it? Ruby was the perfect guy. Beholden to the mob, likely already knew he was seriously ill and didn’t have much time left on earth, and had easy access to Oswald through his DPD connections.
6). Ruby was in a cell, and for a long while, he was cooperating, keeping his mouth shut about the larger conspiracy. But then, he started to slip, started speaking out of turn, making weird statements to hint that he knew something. Many theories suggest that Ruby did this because he didn’t want to die in a cell, and was trying to leverage his knowledge of the conspiracy in order to get free. Obviously, the American public would not have accepted Ruby being let free, and that would’ve made the conspiracy theorists even more suspicious.
7). So the CIA went to Dr. Louis West, an MK Ultra psychologist from Los Angeles. They directed him to go meet with Ruby to shut him up. The CIA fried Ruby’s brain. He was never the same after Dr. West “treated” him. He was incoherent. Nobody ever questions why an MK Ultra psychologist from LA is in Dallas, treating Ruby of all people. There were no psychologists within a thousand miles available to see Ruby?
So to sum up, I don’t believe Ruby acted alone. All Warren supporters believe that not only did Oswald act alone, Ruby also acted alone, and the Dr. West involvement is inconsequential, nothing to see here.
Do you have any links or other information regarding item 7? I did a quick search but didn't find anything credible about the CIA "frying Ruby's brain".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
