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What doesn't paint a picture of conspiracy, in your mind?
You talk a lot about people needing to keep an open mind, which means willing to have it changed. So what would cause you to change your mind about a conspiracy? Show us how open your mind is.
If De Mohrenschildt hadn’t “befriended” Oswald.
If the CIA and FBI hadn’t monitored Oswald’s mail.
If the timing worked better after shots fired at 12:30 to Oswald’s meeting with Tippit
If Brennan would’ve picked Oswald out of the lineup
If Buell Frazier stated that the package was large enough to be a Carcano
If Dr West hadn’t visited Ruby in his cell right after he started making weird statements.
If Bonnie Ray Williams wasn’t eating lunch upstairs and said he didn’t see Lee.
If Givens hadn’t changed his story about not seeing Lee head upstairs before 1200.
If Thomas Vallee and the Cubans had never existed in Chicago.
If so many didn’t say they smelled gunfire at street level.
If Tip O’Neill didn’t state that he was told by secret service that the shots came from the other direction.
If Roger Craig didn’t say it was a Mauser
If the Paine’s weren’t affiliated with the CIA
If there weren’t custody problems with the rifle fingerprints
I could go on and on with dozens upon dozens of other details that don’t add up to me. But you get the point.
If De Mohrenschildt hadn’t “befriended” Oswald.
If the CIA and FBI hadn’t monitored Oswald’s mail.
If the timing worked better after shots fired at 12:30 to Oswald’s meeting with Tippit
If Brennan would’ve picked Oswald out of the lineup
If Buell Frazier stated that the package was large enough to be a Carcano
If Dr West hadn’t visited Ruby in his cell right after he started making weird statements.
If Bonnie Ray Williams wasn’t eating lunch upstairs and said he didn’t see Lee.
If Givens hadn’t changed his story about not seeing Lee head upstairs before 1200.
If Thomas Vallee and the Cubans had never existed in Chicago.
If so many didn’t say they smelled gunfire at street level.
If Tip O’Neill didn’t state that he was told by secret service that the shots came from the other direction.
If Roger Craig didn’t say it was a Mauser
If the Paine’s weren’t affiliated with the CIA
If there weren’t custody problems with the rifle fingerprints
I could go on and on with dozens upon dozens of other details that don’t add up to me. But you get the point.
Yes, I get the point. Anyone who isn't yet convinced there was a conspiracy needs to keep an open mind but you never will.
Yes, I get the point. Anyone who isn't yet convinced there was a conspiracy needs to keep an open mind but you never will.
I have an open mind, but I have seen no evidence, none at all, that would hold up in an impartial court of law, that Oswald was indeed the lone gunman without any conspiracy.
All you have is that LBJ and Hoover desperately wanted everyone to believe that Oswald did it alone, and they demanded that Warren write a bogus report while Hoover, McCone, and Dulles ran interference.
I am convinced that Oswald was involved somehow, but I’m not convinced he was on the 6th floor, let alone took the shots. I’m also not convinced that whoever was on the 6th floor was the lone gunman.
Brennan and Givens would’ve been shredded on the stand by any credible defense attorney.
The botched chain of custody of the rifle and the fingerprints would’ve caused that evidence to be discarded. Some people have even stated they seen police lift Oswald’s fingerprint after he was laying dead at Parkland.
But getting back to Oswald’s involvement. I believe he was handled by J Walton Moore, and De Mohrenschildt was Moore’s cutout. I find Jay Epstein’s account of all of this to be credible.
Unbeknownst to Oswald, he was the patsy, just like Thomas Vallee was intended to be in Chicago before JFk cancelled his visit to the Army-Navy game.
Did Oswald kill Tippit? He probably did. Did Oswald walk .9 miles to Tippit? No he did not, there was not enough time. Did Tippit pick up Oswald, then they drove, parked, and then they fought? That is my working thesis on that one. Was Tippit involved too? He probably was.
But anyway, getting back to the Warren defenders. You have nothing that convinces me Oswald did it alone. Absolutely nothing in the report points definitively that he did it and acted alone, which is why Ruby was activated to take him out. The trial would’ve been a circus, and even more doubt would’ve crept in.
So, it's 2024 and we still have no concrete evidence of conspiracy or a 2nd shooter and certainly no agreement that they ever existed. I expect the same will be true in 2124.
There is indisputable evidence (my opinion) that more than one shooter was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. When the president's limousine was parked at the hospital, many witnesses observed a small hole in the windshield. An FBI firearms expert found glass fragments inside the limo. Later, when the limo was shipped to Ford's Rouge Plant in Detroit, a supervisor observed a "through-and-through" hole in the windshield and glass fragments inside.
But that is common knowledge.
And much more concrete than an ostensibly thorough report which was loaded with witnesses who were threatened and intimidated, and material witnesses who were never called to testify.
The doctors at Parkland suffered uncalled for abuse. Within hours the whole world "knew" that JFK was shot from behind by an assassin, yet this was not what apparent in Trauma Room 1; the president was shot in the throat from the front and on the side of his head, with a huge exit wound that sprayed blood and brain matter to the rear on the motor officers who accompanied the president's limo. When the autopsy report was released, there were calls for the doctors to lose their licenses, and they were bullied and ridiculed until they changed their version of the events. Only one doctor refused to budge - Dr. Robert McClelland. Many years passed, and six more doctors admitted that they were too afraid to tell the truth and lose their ability to practice medicine.
We have been over this many times. Obviously, there is not complete agreement on the conclusions in the WC Report. I thought that, as time went on, there would be fewer doubters, but the reverse has been true.
From what I have read, there is ample evidence to conclude that there was a conspiracy. For example:
The Z film was altered at Kodak's Hawkeyeworks R&D lab in Rochester, N.Y. Originally, witnesses saw the limo stop for an instant. Now the car keeps moving. Also JFK's head wound has been altered. The original briefing boards were changed; the colors are different, two boards are missing, as are the frame numbers.
Autopsy X-rays, autopsy photos, and the photo of JFK'S brain were switched. Cdr. Humes' autopsy photos and notes were destroyed.Dr. Finck's notes went missing. Easily explained? Perhaps.
While my perceptions about the Kennedy assassination may not always be accurate, I take comfort in William Blake's admonission, "The error of a wise man make your rule, rather than the perfections of a fool."
Note - The HSCA will release pertinent records in 2029. We may get some answers then, bu we may never
get all of the answers.
There is indisputable evidence (my opinion) that more than one shooter was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. When the president's limousine was parked at the hospital, many witnesses observed a small hole in the windshield. An FBI firearms expert found glass fragments inside the limo. Later, when the limo was shipped to Ford's Rouge Plant in Detroit, a supervisor observed a "through-and-through" hole in the windshield and glass fragments inside.
But that is common knowledge.
And much more concrete than an ostensibly thorough report which was loaded with witnesses who were threatened and intimidated, and material witnesses who were never called to testify.
The doctors at Parkland suffered uncalled for abuse. Within hours the whole world "knew" that JFK was shot from behind by an assassin, yet this was not what apparent in Trauma Room 1; the president was shot in the throat from the front and on the side of his head, with a huge exit wound that sprayed blood and brain matter to the rear on the motor officers who accompanied the president's limo. When the autopsy report was released, there were calls for the doctors to lose their licenses, and they were bullied and ridiculed until they changed their version of the events. Only one doctor refused to budge - Dr. Robert McClelland. Many years passed, and six more doctors admitted that they were too afraid to tell the truth and lose their ability to practice medicine.
We have been over this many times. Obviously, there is not complete agreement on the conclusions in the WC Report. I thought that, as time went on, there would be fewer doubters, but the reverse has been true.
From what I have read, there is ample evidence to conclude that there was a conspiracy. For example:
The Z film was altered at Kodak's Hawkeyeworks R&D lab in Rochester, N.Y. Originally, witnesses saw the limo stop for an instant. Now the car keeps moving. Also JFK's head wound has been altered. The original briefing boards were changed; the colors are different, two boards are missing, as are the frame numbers.
Autopsy X-rays, autopsy photos, and the photo of JFK'S brain were switched. Cdr. Humes' autopsy photos and notes were destroyed.Dr. Finck's notes went missing. Easily explained? Perhaps.
While my perceptions about the Kennedy assassination may not always be accurate, I take comfort in William Blake's admonission, "The error of a wise man make your rule, rather than the perfections of a fool."
Note - The HSCA will release pertinent records in 2029. We may get some answers then, bu we may never
get all of the answers.
There is no question in my mind, none, that the Z film we have all seen has been doctored. It was doctored by the CIA at Hawkeye labs Rochester, NY, just like you mentioned.
Dino Brugioni, a highly decorated intelligence analyst with the CIA, and the leading expert of reconnaissance photography and video of that time, went on record and stated that the Z film he initially seen, was not the Z film in the National Archives. The original film was destroyed.
Mr. Brugioni is a highly respected and highly credible witness to all of this, and there are very few Warren defenders who will even bother to question his credibility. They usually just (uncomfortably) ignore this part of the conspiracy.
I have an open mind, but I have seen no evidence, none at all, that would hold up in an impartial court of law,
By impartial you mean a court that would agree with you. You've already made it clear that anyone who differs is a Warren lackey and apologist. That's hardly an open mind.
Quote:
that Oswald was indeed the lone gunman without any conspiracy.
Courts wouldn't look at whether the crime took place "without any conspiracy." Only conspiracy theorists do that, because its a fool's errand that never reaches a conclusion but also never runs out of material.
The court would only look at any evidence for a conspiracy or 2nd shooter, meaning actual facts and names and physical evidence, weapons or ballistics not just suspicions. Then the court would say its inconclusive (at best), but here's a guy who bought the gun that killed the President (regardless of what you say), worked where the gun was found, was seen bringing a long paper-wrapped package to work that day that was found near the rifle (regardless of what you say), wasn't accounted for at the exact moment of the shooting (regardless of what you say), went home changed clothes and got a gun and killed a cop (regardless of what you say)...and these are all very damning and your suspicion and objections don't change that one bit. I can't imagine a jury would take more than 3 hours to return a guilty verdict.
There is indisputable evidence (my opinion) that more than one shooter was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. When the president's limousine was parked at the hospital, many witnesses observed a small hole in the windshield. An FBI firearms expert found glass fragments inside the limo. Later, when the limo was shipped to Ford's Rouge Plant in Detroit, a supervisor observed a "through-and-through" hole in the windshield and glass fragments inside.
By impartial you mean a court that would agree with you. You've already made it clear that anyone who differs is a Warren lackey and apologist. That's hardly an open mind.
Courts wouldn't look at whether the crime took place "without any conspiracy." Only conspiracy theorists do that, because its a fool's errand that never reaches a conclusion but also never runs out of material.
The court would only look at any evidence for a conspiracy or 2nd shooter, meaning actual facts and names and physical evidence, weapons or ballistics not just suspicions. Then the court would say its inconclusive (at best), but here's a guy who bought the gun that killed the President (regardless of what you say), worked where the gun was found, was seen bringing a long paper-wrapped package to work that day that was found near the rifle (regardless of what you say), wasn't accounted for at the exact moment of the shooting (regardless of what you say), went home changed clothes and got a gun and killed a cop (regardless of what you say)...and these are all very damning and your suspicion and objections don't change that one bit. I can't imagine a jury would take more than 3 hours to return a guilty verdict.
That’s not at all what I posted, and you know it. There is plenty of doubt that Lee didn’t do it.
The defense argument would be that Oswald wasn’t even on the 6th floor and that many people smelled gunfire and heard gunfire at street level.
When they put Brennan on the stand, the defense would’ve asked him why he couldn’t pick Oswald out of a lineup, and then later changed his mind.
When they put Givens on the stand, the defense would’ve asked him why he changed his initial testimony from not seeing Oswald to seeing him walk up 5 minutes before 12.
When they put the police on the stand, their custody of evidence on the rifle and the fingerprint would’ve been shredded. I would’ve even called Roger Craig for him to testify that they all thought it was a Mauser, and now they all can’t say with certainty that the Carcano was even the gun they found.
There’s also the paraffin test.
There’s also the evidence of Lee ordering a rifle from Chicago. The paperwork does not fit reality.
There’s Baker running into the TSBD immediately after shots fired and there is Lee on the 2nd floor, coke in hand. That’s why they initially let him go, they didn’t believe it was possible he could be the guy that was on the roof or top floors.
There’s Buell Frazier stating under oath that the package Lee carried wasn’t big enough to be the Carcano.
There is plenty of other inconsistencies too.
The prosecution would have a hard time with all of this. The public wanted blood, so they might’ve convicted Lee, but there would’ve been a lot of dirty laundry aired. That’s why they had Ruby take him out, save everyone the trouble of having to explain why it doesn’t add up.
There's no need to regurgitate your talking points, we know them and all of them have rational, non-conspiratorial explanations. You just ignore them.
Let’s look at those “rational” explanations.
Because Brennan was “scared”.
Because Givens had forgot, then “magically” remembered.
Because Craig is a “nutcase” and he can’t possibly be trusted, even though he was a decorated deputy.
Because the paraffin test is “unreliable”.
Because businesses make “mistakes” with tracking their sales.
Because Buell Frazier was “wrong” and he misjudged the curtain rod package.
Because George De Mohrenschildt, whose brother was a CIA agent, was only a “friend” of Lee’s and nothing more.
Because the Paine’s, who were just “friends” of the family, also had CIA connections.
Because Tippit’s good “friend” was also a CIA affiliated person.
Because FBI Informant T2 “missed” the rifle delivery at the post office.
Because Rueben Effren, CIA agent, also “missed” the rifle delivery at the post office.
Again, those are just a few of the “rational” explanations for this whole thing. There are dozens and dozens more.
That’s a lot of “rational” happenings, wouldn’t you say?
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