Houston vs. Dallas (Fort Worth, Arlington, Garland: safest, to move, medical center)
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Actually the quote I was using was for MSA's, not city proper.
Secondly, the comparison is DFW area vs. Houston area as I've said in my previous post...so not sure if it wasnt made clear...but DFW area vs. Houston area.
B/c again I have stressed the importance of thinking regionally when thinking a/b US cities. When people to refer to "dallas"...it's b/c Dallas is the principle city...just like "St. Louis" or "Atlanta" is the principle city of their respective MSA...there would be no greater Atlanta without Atlanta, despite Atlanta only making up <20% of the MSA population., Nobody thinks a/b St. Paul without Minneapolis, the larger principle city. Most people refer to their suburb when talking among locals
But again, I think I"ve made it clear over and over and over again that I am a regional thinker and thus comparing DFW area to Houston area...this is the source of my stats...so in terms of density, those are referring to the MSA stats...
We've established the principle city stats awhile ago I believe....there is no debate a/b the urban core in its current state today with regards to Dallas vs. Houston...the source of the debate stems from the fact that the DFW area vs. Houston area are going head to head in many numbers. And the source of the debate stems from whether or not Dallas' urban core in terms of density is going to catch Houston in the future....but that's been debated over and over too.
As for the accusations...I was not referring to you MPOPE...you've been fairly objective a/b DFW being a major player or you too Guerrila FYI, there are more than just two pro houstonians on this forum I just dont like to point people out specifically b/c I try to keep this as non personal as possible...more a/b a debate rather than making it personal...so please do not take offense...this will likely be the last time I personally name someone in a post for awhile.
But I do stand by my previous posts: I think the DFW area is a major economic engine for Texas, it goes up well as a region against the Houston region, and it goes up well against many of the other regions as well including the Bay Area (which locals there call it East bay or west bay if they live there....examples: "I live live in the East Bay, in the Dublin area"
Most people think regionally b/c their principle city tends to be relatively small in America. Most "St. Louisans" are not living in St. Louis, which is a rough city crime wise. But many in the area will say to outsiders that they are from "St. Louis". Most people from Dublin say the "Bay Area", or San Francisco area. San Fran only accounts for 700-800,000 (off the top of my head) of the 4+ million in the MSA and 8 million in the CMSA. No one every doubts SF's significance to the United States. I think the problem stems from the fact that Houston has a relatively large principle city (4th largest) and makes up 40% of the population of the Houston MSA. That's relatively huge. NYC only has 8 million or so out of the 21 milllion. LA 4 million out of 18 million, most principle cities tend to be a much smaller percentage of the overall region, yet people will refer to their principle city when not among locals (now please dont point out every exception to the rule...b/c of course you can find someone that will be that way). So there is a confusion, b/c some on the forum is comparing Houston proper vs. Dallas proper or DFW area, not sure? and some are comparing Houston area to DFW area. Let's be clear here, I'm a regional thinker, so DFW area vs. Houston area.
But to make things clear, if I do say Dallas...it refers regionally unless otherwise specified, but I think I"ve done a relatively good job saying DFW unless we talk a/b high rise construction in Dallas' downtown in particular, which is also an exciting topic b/c there is plenty of documentation supporting the growth of numerous high rises downtown that anyone can look up at the goverment websites and NCTCOG websites. Dallas only makes up 1/6th of the MSA population, but as a region, we are an economic powerhouse, and the region would not exist if it werent for the principle city and the 2ndary smaller principle city of Ft. Worth, which would be the equivalence of Kansas City, KS, or St. Paul Minnesota, or Tacoma, WA, do I need to continue to list?
FYI, businesses do consider the MSA stat very important when choosing for location and offices. They have too...though the move by Louisville was smart from marketing standpoint, businesses will look at the overall region as well when factoring in an office or manuf plant location. The workforce is important, the amt of education in the workforce is important. DFW has 6+ million people....There's a reason why DFW continues to attract businesses over San Antonio, or Atlanta over Louisville, Kentucky.
The US govt. recognizes the importance of regional area b/c it gives a better overall picture in many cases. Louisville, Kentucky as I've used multiple times vs. Atlanta is a great example, b/c the whole story a/b Louisville is well documented. I dont think anyone on this forum will say that Louisville, despite being bigger, is just as much of a major player as Atlanta.
I know there is the story of Dallas proper vs. Houston proper, and some things can be compared, but other variables cannot. This debate probably arises out of the native Texans that saw Dallas and Houston when they didnt have much surrounding population. But rest assured, that hasnt been my debate..it's always been about DFW vs. Houston areas. I cannot argue land area in Houston proper vs. Dallas proper nor population. I will not argue that Houston proper is more or less dense than Dallas proper b/c It's obvious with its land area and it's urban core being within the inner loop that it would be. But I will argue that Houston Area and Dallas area (sorry DFW area) is roughly the same in density with Houston besting DFW by 5/sq mile, whereas Chicago area has 1000 /sq mile more people. I know Dallas proper would never catch Houston proper in population, if it does, it needs to get vertical quickly...not going to happen. Whoever says that is in complete and utter disbelief. BUt I will say that regionally, I think comparisons can be made and I am confident in the DFW region stacking up well against the other great metros of the US including Houston and Atlanta.
Overall, I like the DFW area better, others like Houston area better. There are certain things that I like out of city that I feel DFW bests Houston area on. But it all boils down to preferences...the root of microeconomics. Everyone has their preferences.
I"m not a native of either city....but I've been to both (Houston several times too)...and I've drawn that conclusion overall for reasons I've listed in the way past
So, since many people refer to their principle city in "area discussions", I dont think it's a complete crime to say that..though I think relatively I've used the phrase " DFW area" more...but occasionally I'll use Dallas too. But I think my previous posts would have led people to conclude that I've been talking regionally for months I've participated in this forum. When talking to my northern neighbors up in IL, MO, IA, it's so much easier just to say Dallas...much like Chicago people just say CHicago to outsiders...even though they maybe from Naperville or Shaumburg. But if it really upsets all of you, then I'll just say DFW area from now on...believe me, it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Last edited by metroplex2003; 07-10-2007 at 03:40 PM..
Actually the quote I was using was for MSA's, not city proper.
Secondly, the comparison is DFW area vs. Houston area as I've said in my previous post...so not sure if it wasnt made clear...but DFW area vs. Houston area.
B/c again I have stressed the importance of thinking regionally when thinking a/b US cities. When people to refer to "dallas"...it's b/c Dallas is the principle city...just like "St. Louis" or "Atlanta" is the principle city of their respective MSA...there would be no greater Atlanta without Atlanta, despite Atlanta only making up <20% of the MSA population.
I agree with you. Dallas, is a major economic engine in texas. I only disagree with part of what you say. Fort Worth would've existed whether Dallas existed or not. Maybe Fort Worth wouldn't be what it is today without the help of its big brother Dallas on the other side of the metroplex but Fort Worth would've existed. True Irving, Plano, Richardson wouldn't exist w/out Dallas but i do believe Fort Worth (30 miles away) would. My point is, you can't apply the same scenarios when talking about a city's suburbs as you do a major city like Fort Worth.
I agree with you. Dallas, is a major economic engine in texas. I only disagree with part of what you say. Fort Worth would've existed whether Dallas existed or not. Maybe Fort Worth wouldn't be what it is today without the help of its big brother Dallas on the other side of the metroplex but Fort Worth would've existed. True Irving, Plano, Richardson wouldn't exist w/out Dallas but i do believe Fort Worth (30 miles away) would. My point is, you can't apply the same scenarios when talking about a city's suburbs as you do a major city like Fort Worth.
I agree to a point...but the mid cities was prairie land before...Arlington wasnt large either. I think the two cities melded to form the big MSA it is today...with Dallas being the larger and more important of the two cities, and the larger principle city. I do think Ft. Worth would have existed, but it would have been a much smaller scale that would be more along the lines of a San Antonio or an Austin rather than being part of the 4th largest metropolitan area in the country. In both the MSP case and also the DFW case, they were smart to put the airport in the geographic center of their respective metro areas. It spurred growth and development...and also using heavy rail service to connect the two was smart...b/c it made it a much smaller region with the connection of the two...and also the seamless freeway planning helped too. Back in the 70's, it's nice that the two city leaders put their differences aside to come up with the plans for what is now DFW airport. Bedford, Hurst, Arlington (parts of), Las Colinas, etc, it was all prairie land. There was a definite separation b/t Dallas and Ft. Worth. The US govt. saw the areas as two separate areas. No longer today. THe US Census bureau looks at the area as one big MSA as businesses have chosen relocations based on the overall region whereas in the past back in the 60's and 70's, the distance b/t the two was greater (now I'm talking figuratively to all the folks who will call me out on the fact that distances dont change b/t downtowns). TOday, the midcities have melded the two together making for a great region to live, work, and play in. But overall, despite the historic differences, the region has come together to operate as a region...which was smart, b/c they have fared better as a region.
SF and Oakland have a similar issue. Oakland is a city in its own right, but SF is the main principle city of that region that has made the surrounding areas succeed on a grander scale...it's almost an economies of scale issue...
But Oakland and SF had a synergistic effect just like D and FW.
It's like Minneapolis/St. Paul. It's like Seattle/Tacoma, which Tacoma is 38 miles from downtown to downtown. Though their airport favors seattle, it's still in between the two downtowns...hence the name "Seatac Int'l Airport".
Well, I've lived in both and I must say that Houston looks bigger than Dallas' when you are coming down I-10, or I-45, but Dallas' can be seen from a much clearer perspective-due to lack of humidity and refinery gases. Actally-I like Dallas' better than Houston-Houston's is so run down and traffic is so awful-although, there's something about the Gulf air-I'm a salt-water air freak-love the beach!
I will have to say Ft. Worth has my vote! There's nothing like it down in Sundance Square at night. You feel so safe-it's really beautifully decorated and the jazz is wonderful! At Christmas it feels like a magical place especially on a cold december night and you don't see much of those in Houston.
When we moved up here from Houston 25 years ago, I thought I had died and gone to heaven-I just miss the people in Houston-everyone here is basically a transplant.
Fort Worth would be just another cowtown had it not been for its rivalry and jealousy of Dallas which has driven it to achieve many great things. Yep I keep the Dallas vs. Fort Worth smackdown going, too!
Well, I've lived in both and I must say that Houston looks bigger than Dallas' when you are coming down I-10, or I-45, but Dallas' can be seen from a much clearer perspective-due to lack of humidity and refinery gases. Actally-I like Dallas' better than Houston-Houston's is so run down and traffic is so awful-although, there's something about the Gulf air-I'm a salt-water air freak-love the beach!
I will have to say Ft. Worth has my vote! There's nothing like it down in Sundance Square at night. You feel so safe-it's really beautifully decorated and the jazz is wonderful! At Christmas it feels like a magical place especially on a cold december night and you don't see much of those in Houston.
When we moved up here from Houston 25 years ago, I thought I had died and gone to heaven-I just miss the people in Houston-everyone here is basically a transplant.
Houston isn't run down. I do agree that parts along the Port of Houston are, but that is Pasadena/Galena Park/Jacinto City, and only extreme eastern parts of Houston. Also, it isn't like the air from the port covers the whole metro. The winds basically keep it on that side and you don't smell the refinery air anywhere else.
When I moved up to DFW in January, I thought I had died and was sent to hell!
You can't fool me, I lived in Houston and yes most of the time there is no breeze at all (just thick humid air you can cut with a knife) but when there is the rare breeze, you can smell the refineries. After all, the breeze comes from the bay, right?
Ok, Dallas and Houston-if you must know what suburb I live in-it's Arlington which by the way will be home soon to the new Cowboy Stadium and Superbowl in 2012! So now we have Ameriquest Field (Ballpark Arlington), but I'd rather call it Texas Ranger/Nolan Ryan Ballpark. If it wasn't for Nolan Ryan-it wouldn't be there. and now we will home of the Cowboys. But yet, my heart lies in Fort Worth!
It is true that all cities have their run down parts, however I do like the Woodlands area. And as for Dallas-I haven't found that area that truly fits my style, except for maybe, Addisson. My grand sone plays hockey there and I do like what I have seen of it.
Dallas was ok for JR Ewing and Houston was ok for Bush, but give me Ft. Worth anyday!
Ha - mama - you know all the stories about how Amon Carter would pack a lunch because he didn't want to eat in Dallas? Well we must keep those stories alive! I do like Joe T.'s - the only reason to go to Fort Worth unless SMU is playing TCU there!
BTW, J R lived way out in Murphy...but Pam Ewing's house was two blocks from mine in Lakewood. You know where Bobby was run over in the driveway and then resurrected in the shower dream sequence...
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...so in terms of density, those are referring to the MSA stats...
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