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but another parameter that they use and consider significant is aircraft movements...that's the number that they use when you hear Atlanta being talked a/b all the time as the world's busiest airport. Chicago's #2 in aircraft movements, and that makes DFW the 3rd busiest in the world, and that's despite losing the Delta hub.. DFW is also the nation's 2nd largest airport.
As for international traffic, cannot dispute that Houston has more international influences, but I think the international traffic numbers should narrow over the next years as the International Terminal D finally opened up in mid-2006 at DFW airport. It has 28 wide-swing gates and can handle many more international passengers than the airport's previous older terminals could handle.
And now that the Wright Amendment compromise is finally settled, DFW could be seeing growth in the international sector in the near future. Qantas has made DFW their number one candidate to initiate service to Texas, mainly b/c of the One World alliance and American Airlines.
The Dallas Love Field vs. DFW Int'l had hindered DFW's further expansion for the last few years b/c of fear that American would have to split up hub operations b/t Love Field and DFW. But the Wright Compromise has made this a mute point starting last year.
Now that SWA and American are at a temporary peace agreement, the focus now shifts back to DFW airport and expanding their markets.
The reason why DFW handles more passengers is simply, American airlines is just that much larger than Continental, as I've repeatedly pointed out. Except for Houston, SWA and American rule the state of Texas. Continental is strong in 3 markets in the US, but otherwise, it doesnt have much market share anywhere else. Internationally speaking, Continental is strong out of Houston and Newark, but the other legacy carriers are much stronger in all of the other population centers: American at Miami, JFK, Chicago, LA, DFW, United at Dulles, Chicago, SF, LA, Delta at Atlanta, JFK. Continental though has the upperhand on international service out of Houston, grant you that, but they were more shielded than American was to the stigma of 9-11. American suffered mightily on the Int'l front b/c of the NYC attacks. They had to cut their service abroad in several markets, of which DFW was a casualty of, b/c of a fear of flying "American" abroad. It is only now that people are starting to come back to the airline for Int'l travel. It's really too bad b/c pre-9/11, things were much different at the world's largest airline.
The St. Louis hub and all of TWA's employees were still intact and at >500 flights per day. DFW and ORD were growing at all time highs with Int'l service. JFK was American's airport. Jet Blue could not have been successful if it werent for the 2001 downturn. The reason Jet Blue has JFK now is b/c American didnt have the resources at the time to mount a counter attack...many airline analyst point that out with regards to Jet Blue's timely entry into NYC area.
Continental, b/c of its small size, has not been targeted as much....which is good. They continue to fly under the radar. In fact, today American's JFK terminal had yet another threat. It's American's status that makes it a victim of its own success. It's amazing that this carrier has survived for >75 years without filing for Ch. 11.
Overall, American is the number one carrier to South America. It has a sizable European operation. It's number one to the Carribean. It's smallest presence is in Asia....so look to American to continue expansion into Asia now that people are starting to fly them again for international travel.
But the scope and depth of its partners makes up for that in Cathay Pacific, and Qantas, and BA on the European side.
But in terms of Int'l service, Houston is getting two middle eastern airlines. DFW will be getting Australian flagship carrier once the 787 rolls out. DFW already has Korean Air, which Houston is trying to woo.
I do think that now the Wright Amendment compromise is behind Dallas/Ft. Worth, that DFW will see continued growth. Virgin America is on the radar for DFW. American is finally getting healthy and will be looking for ways to continue to add onto the DFW hub both int'l and domestically. And a strong American Airlines is a competitor you dont want to compete against...they have a reputation for being fierce like that of Northwest Airlines. NWA has a reputation for being brutal. With the largest fleet in the industry, American can mobilize planes and frequency of flights to drive out competitors easily through pricing measures.
I do like continental...it's a great product. It's a niche product within the Legacy carriers. Its small size is a plus as they maybe better able to cope with costs. But I do feel American is much more convenient in terms of options. It just simply has so many more flight options and hubs to choose from. Except for Houston and Newark, the options are pretty scarce. And most of my flying is domestically, but when I do fly internationally, I like the fact American is partners with Cathay Pacific and BA. It allows me to take advantage of the great service of Cathay...which is better than any US carrier can offer up.
But I do forsee problems for both the #4 and #1 carrier in the US. Their costs are by no means the lowest in the industry...and thus they are losing their competitive advantage to the post Ch 11 rivals. That's why overall I think US BAnkruptcy laws with regards to the airlines are a bit unfair...b/c it allows airlines that made poor decisions to be propped up at the expense of airlines that made right decisions such as American and Continental (though Continental wouldnt be around also if it weret for the Ch 11 process).
Continental only has a 71% share in Houston since it does not own Express Jet.
American's share is 84% in DFW with American EAgle, which it does own
Having said all that, it may not be a good thing that Continental with Express Jet has an 86% market share, this leads to higher ticket prices for the consumer out of IAH.
Plus I would also point out that DFW has more low cost carriers than does Houston, making for more competition out of DFW and more options domestically.
You sure about that? IAH has some cheap flights, especially with Continental. It was only $178 to fly to LA with Continental for us this past March. My mom flew to Atlanta for $148 last February with Continental. Hobby has more low-cost carriers than Love Field, including JetBlue.
If you want to go by aircraft movements, then IAH is sixth busiest in the world. You also act like CO is some small airline. The airline is growing by leaps and bounds while American is stagnant. I am glad it wasn't target by the terrorist. Could it also be that they wanted "American" and "United" to be the names that did those things on that fateful day? Virgin is already entering IAH very soon. Emirates is coming. IAH is also in talks with Air India, Virgin Nigeria, Qatar Airways, Korean Air and Asiana Airlines, and Arik Air. No question Air India comes to IAH because of Houston's large Indian population.
You sure about that? IAH has some cheap flights, especially with Continental. It was only $178 to fly to LA with Continental for us this past March. My mom flew to Atlanta for $148 last February with Continental. Hobby has more low-cost carriers than Love Field, including JetBlue.
If you want to go by aircraft movements, then IAH is sixth busiest in the world. You also act like CO is some small airline. The airline is growing by leaps and bounds while American is stagnant. I am glad it wasn't target by the terrorist. Could it also be that they wanted "American" and "United" to be the names that did those things on that fateful day? Virgin is already entering IAH very soon. Emirates is coming. IAH is also in talks with Air India, Virgin Nigeria, Qatar Airways, Korean Air and Asiana Airlines, and Arik Air. No question Air India comes to IAH because of Houston's large Indian population.
I guess everything is relative in terms of airline size...for the US, Continental is 4th largest, but compared to American and United, there's a huge difference b/t the 4th largest and #1,2, and even 3. And I think more globally when it comes to size, ...so Continental doesnt even make the top 10 largest, not even internationally. Internationally American ranks 7th in the world, but it's the only US carrier that makes the top 10.
As for aircraft movement, that is generally the standard that they use when quoting busy airports...so that's good for Houston if it ups their rank to 6.
I do believe the airlines that are most likely to come to Houston would be the ones that can code share with Continental, so you would need to look up the sky team alliance airlines and see which one of those you listed may be most likely to come. That's why it was key for DFW to get the Wright Compromise behind them so American's code share partners, who have been eying DFW for sometime now can come in without having to worry a/b American splitting up hub operations b/t Love and DFW.
As for your fares, you're quoting leisurly fares...which is fine...but the fares people talk a/b with the so called "low cost" carriers are the walk up fares. I think consumers get confused by that especially when they find out sometimes it's cheaper to take American or Continental than Southwest or Jet Blue. Leisurly fares have been relatively low across most major airports...you can get better deals sometimes on American than Frontier or Jet Blue or Southwest.
So when they refer to low fares, they refer to the business fares..b/c it's the business fares that airlines make their money off of. So the more competition, the more the business fares will be lower, which is important for the local economy and the cost of doing business in either Dallas or Houston.
So when Delta, due to its bad management, shut down the DFW hub, all of a sudden fares were extremely elevated, some of the highest fare structure in the country. But low costs carriers have trickled their way into the nation's 2nd largest airport. And also nearby Love Field is stimulating competition as well with the Wright Compromise, so American's monopoly pricing power is not as great as it was at the beginning of the Delta closure. It's too bad that Delta had to shut down, b/c it was providing a check and balance to American. But I suspect a 2nd airline, likely classified under "LCC" may come in and find a niche that American is not willing to serve...we'll see. Though it's hard, b/c so many of us like to use American for its convenience and availability of flight options.
For Houston's case, Hobby is IAH's check and balance, just like Love Field is today for DFW. But SWA is getting dangerous monopolies in both Hobby and Love. And they're showing signs of increasing costs...so the good old days when SWA could depend on fuel hedging to keep fares low are coming to a close...and even leisurly fares maybe rising. We'll see.
As for Int'l traffic.... a lot of it depends on an airline that is hubbed there. Most US cities including Houston, and I know you'll jump down my throat for this comment, cannot support the level of international flights and traffic without a major hub carrier there. There are few cities that can in its own right, NYC is one, LA, SF with asian airlines is another b/c virtually most of the country's asian population lives in Calif...sorry Texans...but 500,000 asians, be it a lot, is not enough to support the levels that Houston and Dallas has in terms of flights. IF it werent for CO and AA, then int'l carriers would be reluctant to offer up service to either city. Our big blow was the loss of Delta, b/c with Delta closing up shop, pretty much locks out Air France as well.
So, what hindered DFW was this whole Wright Amendment issue...carriers were skipping over DFW to feed in for American b/c it was unclear if American would have to split up hub operations to serve their premium customers. As a result, there has been a big delay in carriers coming to DFW. BOth Dallas and Ft. Worth have been working endlessly for years to compromise on Wright, which happened this past year.
IT's a complex issue, but the low down is SWA was going to repeal the Wright Amendment state by state if they had to. Missouri was the most recent state. American was threatening to go back to Love Field to compete, which they have, but were threatening to split up hub operations if they had to...FYI, Love Field has 32 usable gates and at one time had even more as it was the main airport for the DFW region.
So now that it's settled, the main thing now is awaiting the arrival of the 787, which is better suited for markets such as Houston and DFW.
And yes AMerican has been stagnant, but you have to look at the big picture...look what they had to go through with 9-11...it's amazing that the world's largest carrier even escaped Ch. 11 at all. And not only did they deal with 9-11, a few months later, they dealt with a major air crash caused by a vortex from a plane in front of them. YOu can call American a failure b/c they're stagnant in growth, but I look at it and call American a huge success story. To me American has been one of the most successful airlines in the last 6 years and also the last 3/4th of a century b/c of what it was able to do considering the circumstances. They maintained all of their hubs without closing a single one, they managed to keep most of their route structure intact, they managed to keep their pensions to their employees (the Post Ch 11 carriers dumped their pension programs). I'm not saying CO is not successful,b/c they are, but American had much more to deal with at the time and they still are. There was a recent threat again made at JFK airport, not on CO, but on American's JFK terminal. The CNBC special is a great documentary. They attacked American and United not b/c of name only, but b/c they knew it would hit us hardest by attacking the two flagship carriers of the country at the time. At 9-11, 1/3 of fliers were using either United or American.
So yes, I think there's more to American than just stagnant growth...I think they are a success. They maintained their status as the world's largest airline despite what happened 6 years ago, they beat United, they beat Delta. Those are the so called "Big 3" as airline analyst call it. They are surviving in the wake of the low cost carriers, which CO has good shielding from since CO only has Houston, Cleveland, and Newark to deal with. It's just a different success story. CO is successful, not saying it isnt. And if you look at my posts, there have been nothing but praise for CO, but I do think it's unfair to just look at American and say stagnant and that's it. I think there are more positive things to say a/b our country's largest airline both domestically and internationally. As for size issue, to me, CO is not that large..but that's opinion...for americans, CO is large b/c it's the 4th largest out of a/b 20 airlines or so...but when I think large, I think AirFrance/KLM, BA, Cathay, American, United, Lufthansa, etc. And there is a huge difference b/t the #4 and #1 size wise...in terms of revenue passenger miles, fleet size, etc. So it's not meant to be derogatory to CO, like I said, CO is a great product, it caters to the business traveler well, and they have successfully drawn in more int'l service to Houston. BUt I do disagree with you on American, b/c I do think given the circumstances they have been resilient.
Sorry, pretty nerdy a/b the aviation industry...sort of been fascinated since I was a kid.
But, I think this topic has pretty much been worn down...so we can get back to more direct Houston vs. Dallas talk again if you want...this was indirectly related...since both Houston and Dallas depend on CO and AA.
Anyway, I've seen you recently on the underrated skyline discussion, which has been interesting....but on that forum I've been discussing St. Louis and its offerings more since it's more of a national debate rather than regional like this one.
But can you think of any other Dallas vs. Houston things to talk a/b that hasnt been discussed already?
These guys are airline experts mpope! You know, I have to say that I enjoy Continental whenever I fly on them. I don't like flying at all, and avoid it at all costs, but Continental has great customer service.
These guys are airline experts mpope! You know, I have to say that I enjoy Continental whenever I fly on them. I don't like flying at all, and avoid it at all costs, but Continental has great customer service.
Yes they do. It's a great product that caters to business travelers, and thus leisurly travelers also benefit.
But if you all want, we can get back to more direct Dallas vs. Houston discussions...b/c it seems like there have been two discussions over recent days...American vs. Continental and not sure exactly a/b the other one...b/c I've seemed to have gotten lost in the who said he said she said, etc...but I think that other conversation has worn itself out as well...so maybe we can come up with a new topic with regards to Dallas Vs. Houston that is different than previous discussions...I do feel the high rise thing is quite old now...sports teams are a matter of opinion, shopping and restaurants have been discussed thoroughly, rail/public transportation has been discussed....so if you all have any new ideas, I'm all for it...otherwise, you can catch me on one of the other 18 threads I've been following...which range from underrated skyline to best cities in Iowa to LA and Chicago, etc.
But i'll be still following this thread if something new comes up.
Sorry, pretty nerdy a/b the aviation industry...sort of been fascinated since I was a kid.
No, no that's a good thing.
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