Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I thought I had read something in the lines of the PawSox taking this somewhat seriously, after saying how they deemed improving McCoy to be "not feasible" (for undisclosed reasons). After reading the article again, however; it was only Bill Lee speaking "on behalf" of the PawSox in his enthusiasm about FR (at an unrelated event). I guess I'll leave it at that...
I'm sure they're listening to any/all offers. Fall River just has a history of making a very public, but also very weak pitch (i.e. writing a letter) to powerful people saying "build it/put it here!" and getting essentially a "thanks, we'll consider it" response (if they get any response at all). The waterfront sites Fall River typically offers are either brownfields which require millions in cleanup before they can even be touched, or sites already owned by or committed to somebody else.
I also think the Red Sox are going to do their best to feign serious interest in places like Worcester, Fall River, Springfield, etc. They'll take a page from Robert Kraft and really make it look like they're leaving. Realistically, it doesn't make sense to move to a place like Springfield, Worcester, or Fall River. The market isn't nearly as large (or as affluent) as Providence. None of those places are as well connected to the Boston market as Providence is either (Worcester has overlap, but it's still much smaller). Manchester has an AA team and can't support an AAA team. Hartford has invested a lot into moving the AA New Britain Rock Cats (they'll be the Hartford Yard Goats) to downtown Hartford in a new stadium constructed as part of a major redevelopment project. New Haven and Bridgeport are the only other cities that may be large enough to sustain an AAA team, but they're Yankee territory (ok, so New Haven is borderline- still unnecessary considering how big and passionate the rest of New England is for the Sox). It's not crazy for an AAA team to be located out of the parent club's turf, but I don't see why the Red Sox would want/need to do that.
If the Pawsox want to move out of Providence/Pawtucket, they're going to have to look at alternatives in the Boston area. It's the only thing that's feasible. Lynn would probably be a reasonable location for a team- somewhere along the waterfront. Quincy, Somerville (Assembly Square area), Malden, Medford or somewhere else outside of the urban core but still on rapid transit would be a decent alternative. It would be accessible, there would be little resistance from neighbors, and some of those places may be inclined to offer incentives (especially Lynn and Quincy which would benefit from a stadium as an anchor to major downtown redevelopment). It's also going to be more expensive and you risk trying to draw from a crowd that already has the Boston Red Sox, Lowell Spinners and Brockton Rox. Malden is working on building a smaller Single-A/Independent League Ballpark (akin to Brockton's). So a proposed AAA stadium in the area would face fierce opposition from the minor league and independent league clubs trying to maintain their attendance.
Still, I don't think there's any way the Pawsox leave the Providence area. The team has a record of success there. They have good roots. I think a lot of this is grandstanding and hoping they'll get public money and a prime spot. I think that in the end, they're going to have to pick an alternate location and fund much more (maybe all) of the project themselves. I think they're willing to do that. I just think they're trying to play Rhode Island into panicking and forking over the money.
Everyone seems to be assuming that the Pawsox have to stay within an hour or so of Boston, but that's not really true at all. Lots of major-league teams have Triple-A teams that are far from the big club. My beloved Mets (beat the Cubs!), for example, are affiliated with the Las Vegas 51s. They don't own the 51s, but for many years, they did own the Tidewater Tides, who were in Norfolk, Virginia, more than six hours away from Queens. So there's no reason the Red Sox-affiliated ownership group should be limited to New England.
Everyone seems to be assuming that the Pawsox have to stay within an hour or so of Boston, but that's not really true at all. Lots of major-league teams have Triple-A teams that are far from the big club. My beloved Mets (beat the Cubs!), for example, are affiliated with the Las Vegas 51s. They don't own the 51s, but for many years, they did own the Tidewater Tides, who were in Norfolk, Virginia, more than six hours away from Queens. So there's no reason the Red Sox-affiliated ownership group should be limited to New England.
The Red Sox value is far greater in New England than anywhere else. While it is true that many AAA teams are no where near their parent, look at the model the Red Sox use. ALL OF THEIR TOP FARM TEAMS ARE WITHIN TWO HOURS DRIVE OF BOSTON. The A team is in Lowell (Spinners), the AA team in Portland, ME (Sea Dogs), and the AAA team in Pawtucket. The siting of these teams is no accident. It was done so to maximize value and further cement the Red Sox brand in the region.
But being too close, like Lynn or Quincy, eats into the market that's already super-close to Fenway, and is in too congested a location to draw fans from outside the immediate area. A family from Swansea or Somerset isn't going to deal with Boston traffic to go to a minor league game.
The Red Sox value is far greater in New England than anywhere else. While it is true that many AAA teams are no where near their parent, look at the model the Red Sox use. ALL OF THEIR TOP FARM TEAMS ARE WITHIN TWO HOURS DRIVE OF BOSTON. The A team is in Lowell (Spinners), the AA team in Portland, ME (Sea Dogs), and the AAA team in Pawtucket. The siting of these teams is no accident. It was done so to maximize value and further cement the Red Sox brand in the region.
This is the big thing. There are a number of AAA affiliates that are far from their parent clubs (i.e. Houston/Fresno, LA/OKC, Oakland/Nashville, etc), but most prefer geographical proximity. That's especially the model the Red Sox live by with Pawtucket, Portland, and Lowell all being so close. I'm sure the Sox would entertain offers from a mid-size city outside of New England looking for a team. however, with the population density and proven track record of a lucrative brand right here in New England, it would be a big risk to move out of the region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp775
But being too close, like Lynn or Quincy, eats into the market that's already super-close to Fenway, and is in too congested a location to draw fans from outside the immediate area. A family from Swansea or Somerset isn't going to deal with Boston traffic to go to a minor league game.
Eh, I wouldn't worry about that too much. There are 2 Million people living inside the Route 128 belt. another 2+ Million just outside of it. Fenway is one of the smaller ballparks in the U.S. and attendance numbers are among the best. A 10-12,000 person ballpark isn't going to dilute things too much. the 12,000 seats combined with Fenways 37,000 still leaves the combined total of seats at under 50,000. That's fewer than many MLB stadiums (some in smaller markets). Families driving from Swansea and Somerset aren't really going to matter much when a stadium in Malden, Quincy or Lynn has more families within walking distance than those two towns have total and literally hundreds of thousands more a rapid transit ride away. The price of a ticket will be much lower than Fenway and draw families in the Boston area that can't afford $400 or so to go to a baseball game at Fenway. There's absolutely room for an AAA stadium in the Boston area if that's the direction the team wanted to go.
I'm inclined to agree that the ownership does want to capture a different corner of the market. That's why I still think Providence is likely the only choice. It's also the best choice.
Eh, I wouldn't worry about that too much. There are 2 Million people living inside the Route 128 belt. another 2+ Million just outside of it. Fenway is one of the smaller ballparks in the U.S. and attendance numbers are among the best. A 10-12,000 person ballpark isn't going to dilute things too much. the 12,000 seats combined with Fenways 37,000 still leaves the combined total of seats at under 50,000. That's fewer than many MLB stadiums (some in smaller markets). Families driving from Swansea and Somerset aren't really going to matter much when a stadium in Malden, Quincy or Lynn has more families within walking distance than those two towns have total and literally hundreds of thousands more a rapid transit ride away. The price of a ticket will be much lower than Fenway and draw families in the Boston area that can't afford $400 or so to go to a baseball game at Fenway. There's absolutely room for an AAA stadium in the Boston area if that's the direction the team wanted to go.
I'm inclined to agree that the ownership does want to capture a different corner of the market. That's why I still think Providence is likely the only choice. It's also the best choice.
Anywhere north of Boston eats into the Lowell and Portland markets which is not ideal. There is also the A team in Manchester as well. There is literally nothing to the south of Boston. That is a big reason why a team in the Providence area makes so much sense and why the PawSox have been so successful.
As for trying to capture a different corner of the market. I agree. I think this whole move is tied to trying to capture the corporate market, a more upscale and lucrative crowd. McCoy Stadium and Pawtucket in general are not sexy enough for this group. That is why they are looking to move. I feel that ownership is taking a big risk going this route as it may turn off what has been their traditional fan base - budget conscious families and seniors.
This is the big thing. There are a number of AAA affiliates that are far from their parent clubs (i.e. Houston/Fresno, LA/OKC, Oakland/Nashville, etc), but most prefer geographical proximity. That's especially the model the Red Sox live by with Pawtucket, Portland, and Lowell all being so close. I'm sure the Sox would entertain offers from a mid-size city outside of New England looking for a team. however, with the population density and proven track record of a lucrative brand right here in New England, it would be a big risk to move out of the region.
Eh, I wouldn't worry about that too much. There are 2 Million people living inside the Route 128 belt. another 2+ Million just outside of it. Fenway is one of the smaller ballparks in the U.S. and attendance numbers are among the best. A 10-12,000 person ballpark isn't going to dilute things too much. the 12,000 seats combined with Fenways 37,000 still leaves the combined total of seats at under 50,000. That's fewer than many MLB stadiums (some in smaller markets). Families driving from Swansea and Somerset aren't really going to matter much when a stadium in Malden, Quincy or Lynn has more families within walking distance than those two towns have total and literally hundreds of thousands more a rapid transit ride away. The price of a ticket will be much lower than Fenway and draw families in the Boston area that can't afford $400 or so to go to a baseball game at Fenway. There's absolutely room for an AAA stadium in the Boston area if that's the direction the team wanted to go.
I'm inclined to agree that the ownership does want to capture a different corner of the market. That's why I still think Providence is likely the only choice. It's also the best choice.
This is very true in my local market. We have the Las Vegas 51s.. the AAA affiliate of the NY Mets. It made sense when we were the Dodgers affiliate. But the Mets?
Out of 30 major-league teams, I count 14 -- almost half -- that are not within a day's drive of their Triple-A affiliate.
Agreed, but this doesn't seem to fit the Red Sox model. They've worked to localize their minor league affiliates. The Lowell Spinners were the Elmira Pioneers and were affiliated with the Sox from 1973-1992, switched to the Marlins affiliate for three years (during these three years, the Sox affiliate in the league was Utica) and then moved to Lowell, reaffiliated with the Sox and became the Spinners. The Portland Sea Dogs were Marlins affiliates until 2002 then became the Sox affiliate (before Portland, the Sox affiliate was Trenton). Pawtucket has been the AAA affiliate of the Sox since 1973 and was the AA affiliate from 1970-72. The team has gradually worked to bring the major affiliates closer to the parent club. It's ideal because you have a regional fan base to play off of, and because there are times when you need to quickly get an AAA player to the parent club (lots of these guys get the call on the way to Pawtucket and turn around and head North). It also helps to have players close during rehab stints.
I'm not saying it's impossible that the Red Sox ownership would move outside of New England, but I think it's highly unlikely. There would have to be a city in a good market willing to foot a huge portion of the bill. I think Providence has proven to be a successful market for the franchise for decades. The goal of the Providence park was to take a successful franchise and make it more successful in the same market by upgrading the product (better stadium/location). They don't have alternative plans or else you would have heard of it. Being "open" to other options is smart, but it doesn't mean their actively pursuing anything. They'd be dumb not to take wonderful offer- like a fully funded ballpark- from somewhere else, but even that has risks involved (i.e. what if the the market isn't as strong as Pawtucket/Providence which is exceptionally consistent with attendance?). Money for a ballpark means nothing if they don't fill seats. They know they'll have full seats in RI because they always have- even at a "meh" ballpark in a "meh" neighborhood. They're going to play up their "interest" in other locations and hope that Providence/RI caves and says "here! take it all! please stay!!" They're not going outside of the Providence metro area though.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
