Pawsox now the Provsox?? (Providence, Pawtucket: rail, budget, estate)

[ormari]

Originally Posted by lrfox

I don't follow most of this, but the Spinners have had great success in Lowell and aren't going anywhere. They had the second best attendance in the NY-Penn league behind Brooklyn Last year, a long sellout streak not long ago, and great roots in the community. They also have a very comfortable riverfront stadium Within walking distance to downtown Lowell. Why would they leave?

You know, someone might have made a similar argument about the Pawtucket Red Sox before the ownership change, less the riverfront stadium.

[mp775]

McCoy is even better than riverfront. It's *in* a pond!

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by ormari

You know, someone might have made a similar argument about the Pawtucket Red Sox before the ownership change, less the riverfront stadium.

I was thinking the same thing. They really are one of the more successful AAA teams.

I know you weren't really trying to argue, but there are some differences. You pointed out one. The stadium in Lowell is ideally situated along the waterfront and adjacent to an active downtown. McCoy is located on the boundary of a working class residential neighborhood and an industrial area. LeLacheur Field is also a nicer and newer field (the McCoy renovations were nice, but it's still a dated ballpark).

The other one is that a move from Pawtucket to Providence is a move within the same market. In fact, the proposed site is a more visible, more visually appealing, easier to access location within the same market. There's no risk of losing the existing fanbase while gambling on a new one. Lowell to Worcester is a change in market. It's a gamble. There's no guarantee that they'll be able to replicate or exceed in Worcester the success that they currently have in Lowell.

I think a lot of the talk about potentially moving out of Rhode Island is just posturing to get what they want (see: Bob Kraft moving the Patriots to Hartford). Skeffington was a big Providence player. Providence is the second largest market in New England and the team has been successful there. The ownership group is fiscally smart and they're looking to get more out of the Providence market. Not move the team from the area entirely. It's a bluff.

In any case, I do think this potential Pawsox move is a good example of "If it ain't broke..."

[ormari]

Originally Posted by lrfox

I was thinking the same thing. They really are one of the more successful AAA teams.

I know you weren't really trying to argue, but there are some differences. You pointed out one. The stadium in Lowell is ideally situated along the waterfront and adjacent to an active downtown. McCoy is located on the boundary of a working class residential neighborhood and an industrial area. LeLacheur Field is also a nicer and newer field (the McCoy renovations were nice, but it's still a dated ballpark).

Right. It was just an observation. May I ask why you feel McCoy feels dated? And is dated necessarily bad? After all, Fenway feels dated, and that's a good thing.

Originally Posted by lrfox

The other one is that a move from Pawtucket to Providence is a move within the same market. In fact, the proposed site is a more visible, more visually appealing, easier to access location within the same market. There's no risk of losing the existing fanbase while gambling on a new one. Lowell to Worcester is a change in market. It's a gamble. There's no guarantee that they'll be able to replicate or exceed in Worcester the success that they currently have in Lowell.

I think a lot of the talk about potentially moving out of Rhode Island is just posturing to get what they want (see: Bob Kraft moving the Patriots to Hartford). Skeffington was a big Providence player. Providence is the second largest market in New England and the team has been successful there. The ownership group is fiscally smart and they're looking to get more out of the Providence market. Not move the team from the area entirely. It's a bluff.

In any case, I do think this potential Pawsox move is a good example of "If it ain't broke..."

I agree with this, as my posts on the issue should show. Some will argue that some Pawtucket fans will drop out, but I believe that will be a small percentage should the move go through.

I think with the untimely death of Skeffington, the likelihood that the team stays in Pawtucket has increased substantially.

[sandsonik]

Is it Mike Tamburro or the new ownership that's responsible for the PawSox new look? Because - holy crap, that's awful!

All I can think is that Tamburro was trying to lessen the Sox identity in case they changed affiliations? But then they only took it halfway. That light blue hat and new logo really don't mesh with the Sox colors and it all looks horribly cheap and bush league.

Whatever happens to the PawSox (RISOX?) I hope this new look is extraordinarily short lived!

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by ormari

Right. It was just an observation. May I ask why you feel McCoy feels dated? And is dated necessarily bad? After all, Fenway feels dated, and that's a good thing.

I think McCoy is stuck in that purgatory between being a modern, advanced ballpark and being a classic; but doesn't quite fall into either category. Not unlike the old Yankee Stadium (minus the "Yankee mystique") before it was demolished. It's been renovated multiple times to be "modern" but it doesn't feel modern because it has old bones. However, it doesn't retain it's historic character the way Wrigley or Fenway- or more locally, Cardines Field- does (even though both have been updated extensively since they opened). It's closer to the Oakland Colosseum than it is to Fenway. Maybe a good comparison would be cars. Fenway and Wrigley are restored (albeit modified) 57 Chevys. Classics. McCoy is a 1989 Honda Accord. It runs, it even looks nice enough, but it's not a classic and it's not new.

I agree with this, as my posts on the issue should show. Some will argue that some Pawtucket fans will drop out, but I believe that will be a small percentage should the move go through.

I'm with you. I think it'll be a drop in the bucket. In fact, I think it'll be a net gain as there are more people within walking or easy transit distance to a downtown Providence stadium than there are McCoy. There's no denying that downtown Providence is more of a destination and the destination park will draw more people. I also think that Pawtucket residents who are real fans will eventually drop the grudge and go anyway. It's still not too far from Pawtucket.

I think with the untimely death of Skeffington, the likelihood that the team stays in Pawtucket has increased substantially.

Definitely. The ownership group is extremely calculating. Skeffington was a strategic pick (he didn't become an owner just because he could afford to buy in) because he had experience navigating the Providence/Rhode Island development market and the right network to get things done. I really do think the threats to move out of RI were empty ones. And now I think the ownership group is going to have to regroup and try again later.

[mp775]

I also think that Pawtucket residents who are real fans will eventually drop the grudge and go anyway. It's still not too far from Pawtucket.

Not if it's designed/priced to attract the downtown executive crowd. What's more, not only would parking be expensive downtown, but for a family of four, transit would be also.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by mp775

Not if it's designed/priced to attract the downtown executive crowd. What's more, not only would parking be expensive downtown, but for a family of four, transit would be also.

So lower income families of four in Pawtucket may not go to Pawsox games if it's priced only to attract the downtown executive crowd?

That's still a pretty narrow scope based on a lot of "ifs." Usually with these things, the market wins. If they try to gear it to the downtown executive crowd and they don't succeed, prices will drop in order to stimulate demand and it'll become more accessible to those of lesser means. If they are successful in gearing it toward executives, then they don't need the lower income family of four in Pawtucket anyway. Realistically, an AAA baseball team 45 miles down the road from one of most in-demand MLB teams will not be an extremely exclusive to begin with. The ownership group is smart and knows that one of the most appealing aspects of the Pawsox is that it's an affordable alternative to Boston which is not only the most expensive ticket in baseball, but just getting to the stadium (parking or train) is an expensive hassle as well. They'd be extremely narrow-minded if they didn't try to maintain that appeal.

To be honest, I'm guessing there will be an increase in the cost to go to a game. Mostly for parking. However, I think it'll be negligible for most families. Those who are deterred by a slight increase will be made up for (and probably exceeded) by those who find the new stadium and downtown location an extra incentive to go to a game. A lot of people enjoy what I call the "game day experience" which includes a pregame dinner, taking in the game, and post-game drinks at local bars. It's one reason people love going to games at Fenway and Wrigley. You don't get the game day experience in Pawtucket. You will in Providence.

[ormari]

Originally Posted by mp775

Not if it's designed/priced to attract the downtown executive crowd. What's more, not only would parking be expensive downtown, but for a family of four, transit would be also.

Beyond luxury boxes, it's not clear to me how they're going to really draw in the downtown executive crowd on a day in, day out basis. Minor league ball is more of a family activity.

Lucchino met with Speaker Mattiello. It seems like a wise move on the part of the Red Sox to choose Mattiello over Raimondo. Mattiello seems like the type to give away the store, or at least not charge too much for it.

From that Projo story:

"The taxpayers have shown dissatisfaction with the first offer, and I agree with that and our consultant agrees that the first offer is not something that we should have an interest in," Mattiello said. "And the PawSox ownership recognizes that the terms have to change significantly, and they're waiting for a proposal from us."

What??? The Speaker should make the team come back with a reasonable proposal. The team asked for way too much in their first proposal, and everybody knows it. Mattiello, and by extension the state of Rhode Island, have no need to negotiate at all until the team makes a reasonable offer. To make a counter offer after the ridiculous proposal put forth by the team is a losing strategy.

To Mattiello: stand your ground and wait for them to come to you. The team wants to be in Rhode Island, not Mass. If you don't know the value of what we have, then step aside and let someone who does know our value do the negotiations.

[mp775]

Two interesting Op-Eds over the past couple of days:

Larry Lucchino: Downtown Park will be RI Gem

Chris Fortunado: Should ballpark replace city park?

I wasn't aware of the stormwater mitigation component of the public park. It's quite likely that development of that parcel could limit the amount of development possible on the rest of the 195 land!