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But, cg81, that doesn't seem to me like what you said before. Before you said that we do not know what God will do and therefore we cannot make the determination. Yet, you claim at this juncture, right here and right now to say that you know what God will do because of what it says in his word. Therefore, you should also be able to make the distinction of who is going to heaven or hell, right?
What I was saying is that we know that God will send those who are saved and have accepted His grace to heaven, and those that are unsaved and have not accepted His grace to hell. We humans cannot see in other people's hearts, tho, so we can't say for certain or pronounce a certain judgement on someone whether they died under God's grace or not. For example, there may be a church-going person who appears like a fine, upstanding righteous man, but is living in secret sin and whose heart is evil. On the other hand, someone who everybody sees is living an ungodly life may have accepted God's grace at the end of his life, upon the Lord's final call.
If the church-going person did not repent before death, he will go to hell.
If the ungodly person accepted God's offer and repented before death, he will go to heaven.
Those terms and that basis of judgement we are sure of.. but what we can't judge or see in completeness is a person's heart. We can be pretty sure that someone in all likelihood did not repent and went to hell, and we can say this, but the fact remains that God is the final judge, He gave that person the grace needed to repent, and only He knows for certain if this offer was accepted or not.
I don't even tell a living person "you are going to hell".. why should I pronounce judgment on a dead person? Once again, we can say "If you don't turn to Jesus before you die, you will go to hell" and likewise "If he didn't turn to Jesus before he died, he went to hell". Those judgements we can make.
A heart that is pure before God, washed by the blood of the Lamb, will go to heaven, a heart that is unclean will not. But I don't have God's eyes...
You may think I'm trying to get away from saying anyone is in hell.. I'm not. Many people are there... I'm sure this includes many people I know. What I fully believe, tho, is that when all things are clear on the other side of time, there will be people in heaven who we thought were lost, and people missing who we thought were saved.
So.. the terms for salvation are set in stone. We know that. We just need to be careful how we pronounce judgement on someone who has died, because God knows if that person has accepted the terms or not. We are not, and never will be called to be the final judges of someone's soul. We can leave the final judgement to Him who knows everything, and will judge justly according to His promise.
It might be because of the tasteless way certain posts have been worded, as if Christians get some kind of superiority complex by thinking someone rejected Christ up until the last minute.
Don't you see?
We actually care.
It is my opinion that all posts are worded just fine, regardless of who posted. I firmly believe that this question stumped a lot of regulars and that they were waiting to respond when they found the 'proper' way to do so. The beauty of message boards is that they are not spontaneous. No one is on the spot as they would be in a face to face conversation. People here can step away for hours, days or weeks as they formulate the perfect response. I could be wrong, but I think that is what has happened here.
No one is saying that Christians have a superiority complex.
It is a basic question. According to Christian beliefs, those who do not accept Christ are not going to sit in God's Kingdom. The question is, since most of us have at least one family member who rejects Christ, are they going to Hell? I think that it is safe to say that if it was not a family member who was in question then a lot more people would have responded with a 'yes'. Since the issue is so personal, I believe that people are torn between what they believe philosophically and what they believe theologically.
For example, there may be a church-going person who appears like a fine, upstanding righteous man, but is living in secret sin and whose heart is evil. On the other hand, someone who everybody sees is living an ungodly life may have accepted God's grace at the end of his life, upon the Lord's final call.
If the church-going person did not repent before death, he will go to hell.
If the ungodly person accepted God's offer and repented before death, he will go to heaven.
Those terms and that basis of judgement we are sure of.. but what we can't judge or see in completeness is a person's heart.
Can I point something out, cg81? And no I'm not trying to be snarky or callous, but I am seriously trying to point this out because I do not get it and I never have. Referring to your bolded posts above it seems that less emphasis is put on living a Christ-like lifestyle and more emphasis is put on accepting Jesus whether it be at the very end of your life or very early in life.
Do you not see how this might be confusing for someone like me? I have repeatedly been told that it matters not only if you have accepted Jesus into your heart but also how your actions reflect that in terms of trying to live a Christ-like lifestyle. Now I do have a point in all of this:
In essence, I could live my life how I wanted to in the same fashion that I am and always have been doing. I'll drink a little here and there, I'll smoke a few cigarettes, look at a little porn, advocate gay marriage, not take a really big stance on abortion, and so on and so forth - most of these things are often seen as un-Christlike by many and questionable to others, right? What you're telling me is that I can do all of this until I'm 62 years old (smokers typically die young) and right as I feel my heart giving out I can switch teams and then I'll be in heaven.
On the flip side, does this not also mean that someone could be "saved" early in life and yet their actions do not reflect that they are saved? In essence, they live a rather un-Christlike lifestyle. Yet, because they are "saved" does this not allow for a false sense of confidence to pass judgments, do bad things, and act un-Christlike in whatever way we want to think about and yet still grant them entry into heaven?
Because I get the feeling that what you're saying is that you know God's word and that word is that if you're saved you will go to heaven. Again, I get the part about God being the authority, but surely you see my point? How can we assert that being saved AND actions are the way to heaven but then turn around and say that merely being saved is the way to heaven regardless of how late or early in life we commit to it?
Please, for the love of Tiger Woods do not try to think I am badgering you or trying to turn this into some sort of spectacle. I'm just asking questions, people. That's all I'm doing.
How many people feel they have a relative or friend currently residing in hell or some place like it?
it makes me sick to think about it Troop, but yes I do believe I have a good friend that, more than likely, did go to hell (unless something happened that I did not know about.) Relatives..there are some that I just dont know about...
Can I point something out, cg81? And no I'm not trying to be snarky or callous, but I am seriously trying to point this out because I do not get it and I never have. Referring to your bolded posts above it seems that less emphasis is put on living a Christ-like lifestyle and more emphasis is put on accepting Jesus whether it be at the very end of your life or very early in life.
Do you not see how this might be confusing for someone like me? I have repeatedly been told that it matters not only if you have accepted Jesus into your heart but also how your actions reflect that in terms of trying to live a Christ-like lifestyle. Now I do have a point in all of this:
In essence, I could live my life how I wanted to in the same fashion that I am and always have been doing. I'll drink a little here and there, I'll smoke a few cigarettes, look at a little porn, advocate gay marriage, not take a really big stance on abortion, and so on and so forth - most of these things are often seen as un-Christlike by many and questionable to others, right? What you're telling me is that I can do all of this until I'm 62 years old (smokers typically die young) and right as I feel my heart giving out I can switch teams and then I'll be in heaven.
On the flip side, does this not also mean that someone could be "saved" early in life and yet their actions do not reflect that they are saved? In essence, they live a rather un-Christlike lifestyle. Yet, because they are "saved" does this not allow for a false sense of confidence to pass judgments, do bad things, and act un-Christlike in whatever way we want to think about and yet still grant them entry into heaven?
Because I get the feeling that what you're saying is that you know God's word and that word is that if you're saved you will go to heaven. Again, I get the part about God being the authority, but surely you see my point? How can we assert that being saved AND actions are the way to heaven but then turn around and say that merely being saved is the way to heaven regardless of how late or early in life we commit to it?
Please, for the love of Tiger Woods do not try to think I am badgering you or trying to turn this into some sort of spectacle. I'm just asking questions, people. That's all I'm doing.
Thanks for your questions, Troop.. I appreciate discussing this with you. I posted this thread ( https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...-not-easy.html ) yesterday in order to answer some questions like those above. I hope to get to it today sometime.. very busy.. but this much I will say: True repentance always takes everything, and will result in a change of lifestyle. It's not an easy pass from an evil life.
I think when one is "saved" they wont want to do bad things or behave Un-Christ like...do they sometimes? yes i know i do.. I had a friend that said the same..cant i wait until im old and live like i want to and then accept Christ? the answer might be yes..but who knows how long we have on this earth? Plus for me, being a Christian is not about avoiding hell, which for some, I think it probably is, but for me, its about having a relationship with my creator. I mean yea, avoiding hell and going to heaven is a big plus-lol. But I have a friend now, that never leaves me or forsakes me. His name is Jesus.
it makes me sick to think about it Troop, but yes I do believe I have a good friend that, more than likely, did go to hell (unless something happened that I did not know about.) Relatives..there are some that I just dont know about...
I'm starting to notice a pattern here...
Some seem to be quite honest and sincere in what they believe... Many... Don't seem that way and it makes me wonder if they REALLY believe.
I was going to leave this post as it was but I wanted to clarify:
Why does it not surprise me that there are only a handful of people who have given the consideration of this? It's amazing too... It seems there is a direct correlation between they who feel this way and they who do not try to threaten you with the same notions that they think are so horrible. Ironic isn't it? Absolutely ironic...
Can I point something out, cg81? And no I'm not trying to be snarky or callous, but I am seriously trying to point this out because I do not get it and I never have. Referring to your bolded posts above it seems that less emphasis is put on living a Christ-like lifestyle and more emphasis is put on accepting Jesus whether it be at the very end of your life or very early in life.
Do you not see how this might be confusing for someone like me? I have repeatedly been told that it matters not only if you have accepted Jesus into your heart but also how your actions reflect that in terms of trying to live a Christ-like lifestyle. Now I do have a point in all of this:
In essence, I could live my life how I wanted to in the same fashion that I am and always have been doing. I'll drink a little here and there, I'll smoke a few cigarettes, look at a little porn, advocate gay marriage, not take a really big stance on abortion, and so on and so forth - most of these things are often seen as un-Christlike by many and questionable to others, right? What you're telling me is that I can do all of this until I'm 62 years old (smokers typically die young) and right as I feel my heart giving out I can switch teams and then I'll be in heaven.
On the flip side, does this not also mean that someone could be "saved" early in life and yet their actions do not reflect that they are saved? In essence, they live a rather un-Christlike lifestyle. Yet, because they are "saved" does this not allow for a false sense of confidence to pass judgments, do bad things, and act un-Christlike in whatever way we want to think about and yet still grant them entry into heaven?
Because I get the feeling that what you're saying is that you know God's word and that word is that if you're saved you will go to heaven. Again, I get the part about God being the authority, but surely you see my point? How can we assert that being saved AND actions are the way to heaven but then turn around and say that merely being saved is the way to heaven regardless of how late or early in life we commit to it?
Please, for the love of Tiger Woods do not try to think I am badgering you or trying to turn this into some sort of spectacle. I'm just asking questions, people. That's all I'm doing.
I know it's in the Christianity forum, but it's my thread and I hereby give you permission to respond to it there!
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