Just Wondering... (gospel, worship, quotes, faith)
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I cannot bear to think of any of my relatives in hell. I believe it is a real place. That is why I post what I do.....we should all think about where our eternal destination is going to be. It's too important to ignore.
Hey Troop ,Alpha and I as well as others hope that you do not perish in hell,but have everlasting life in Heaven,however this is not just a point of view,this is what is stated in the Bible(Revelations) and what the Bible states is true to me and to others who believe in the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.Unless one accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour,by having a true repentance,a change of heart,one will perish and reside in an eternal Hell,because it is a turning away from God,a hardening of the heart.
One can't say that an atheist or an agnostic didn't make it to Heaven,because one doesn't know the heart of that individual,that person may have sought salvation shortly before his or her death and is spending an eternity in Heaven ,so who are we to say or suspect as mere mortals be it family or friend stranger etc. that one has perished.
God is the only One and I mean the only One that knows the true heart of an individual,man only sees the outer appearance.
Hey Troop ,Alpha and I as well as others hope that you do not perish in hell,but have everlasting life in Heaven,however this is not just a point of view,this is what is stated in the Bible(Revelations) and what the Bible states is true to me and to others who believe in the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.Unless one accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour,by having a true repentance,a change of heart,one will perish and reside in an eternal Hell,because it is a turning away from God,a hardening of the heart.
I understand your point, noland. Probably more than you or Alpha think I do. I'm not asking these questions to be difficult but there is a certain amount of logic I am trying to approach from this angle.
Simply put, I understand that people want myself and others to accept Jesus, embrace it, and eventually have everlasting life in heaven - in a nutshell - right?
However, I must also point out that it is a belief of many Christians that if I do not do these things than there is a place where I will go - Hell, right? In other words, if I do not embrace the things that you believe in than very simply put I will rot, burn, and become destroyed in hell.
What I am finding interesting is that people most certainly do not want to think of their family members as going through this sort of eternal torture and rightfully so. I can certainly understand being at a funeral of a loved one and everyone saying "He's in a better place now" because the alternative is rather unthinkable. However, is it not true that it is a possibility based on what you believe? That in fact a loved one is indeed burning, rotting, and eviscerating in hell? While it may be extraordinarily painful to think of these things, this is, after all, what you believe and not wanting to think along those lines does not necessarily make it true or untrue.
To further on that, I find it interesting that when proposed with this question, all of a sudden people claim not to know what God is going to do upon our deaths. This is certainly a reasonable argument. If the Christian God exists we certainly don't know what the outcome would be. It would be a little bit arrogant to say we know that.
This begs the question: Why do people assert that one needs to "be saved" in order to get into heaven? It seems to me that by asserting this people are making a clear decision based on their belief as to what God is going to do upon our deaths. In essence, people are claiming to know what God is going to do. And I agree, if you believe in scripture there is certainly a lot to support the notion of hell. However, I do not see how one can say that I may go to hell or any other person may go to hell and then quickly turn their head and not think of a family member as well - no matter how horrible the idea is.
It's not so nice and pretty to make the gesture that our family members are going to hell and are going to rot, burn, and eviscerate does it? It seems barbaric and horrible to think of. I just find the strict avoidance of thinking in this manner to be a little bit strange. I don't imagine that people would really like to think of a God that banishes their family members, loved ones, friends, and others who have perished to a place where they will rot for all eternity and yet this viewpoint is asserted as the truth to people like me but when inquired further about loved ones it seems that people claim that they don't know what God is really going to do. Ironic isn't it?
It then seems to me like it is nothing more than an attempt at instilling fear to try and get one to believe. I wonder, why are we able to cast aside the thoughts of family members rotting in hell but it becomes so easy to tell people like me where I am going to go if I don't embrace Jesus or God?
Troop, when I was very young, I was scared to even think of the tortures of hell, that had been put into my mind..As a youngster when told about the fire that burned you forever in hell it made me very afraid of God, and as I grew a little older and began to study the bible, and ancient literature and art, I began to think "maybe I am misunderstanding something", am I being influenced by things outside the bible? I could not bring myself to speak these horrors of my loving God outloud,but I still had the pictures in my mind. I felt it was okay just to jog the sinners memory a little about his own fearful images of hell that he carries in his mind. .I think if I still believed that, I would be afraid to speak of what pictures I conjoured in my minds eye, because I would know that I cannot prove it. I would almost feel like I was contradicting the "love" of God.. Besides, Jesus already died a terrible painful death for my sins.
Troop, I am trying so hard to answer your very honest and valid question in a way that makes some sense to you..I know you are not trying to stir up any trouble..
I would almost feel like I was contradicting the "love" of God.. Besides, Jesus already died a terrible painful death for my sins.
Troop, I am trying so hard to answer your very honest and valid question in a way that makes some sense to you..I know you are not trying to stir up any trouble..
I think you just did, Blue. I think you really just did... Refer to bolded part above.
I'm sorry, Blue, but I am apparently wearing a rep-point straight jacket lately. That was truly the best answer I have heard yet.
This begs the question: Why do people assert that one needs to "be saved" in order to get into heaven? It seems to me that by asserting this people are making a clear decision based on their belief as to what God is going to do upon our deaths.
...................
It then seems to me like it is nothing more than an attempt at instilling fear to try and get one to believe. I wonder, why are we able to cast aside the thoughts of family members rotting in hell but it becomes so easy to tell people like me where I am going to go if I don't embrace Jesus or God?
I understand where you are coming from, Troop, but "warning people that unless they change their life, they will probably go to hell", or pronouncing a judgement on a person who has died "they have gone to hell" are two entirely different things.
We simply do not know. And like I said in my previous post, one of the reasons we don't make the judgement is because we know the love of God.. we know that He loved that individual more than we did, and made every choice available to him. We don't know what went on behind the scenes. I don't believe that God necessarily gives everyone a last-minute over-powering call before they die.. but at some point in their life, they received the call. God did His part. And on this we have our hope. We still believe that unless the person changed their life, they would not have made it to heaven.. we just do not know if they accepted the grace offered, or not.
We also say sometimes "that person is in heaven". Often we can say this statement with assurance... the person has shown by their life an evidence of walking with God.. and of course you might say that at the very last minute they might have turned against God, so we don't know, and while I suppose this COULD happen, it would be highly unlikely. God's grace is sufficient that you are not completely in His grace one moment, and the next moment completely out of His grace.
I believe (and I think you mentioned it) that there is alot of loud proclaiming "he went to heaven" in the face of severe doubts on the person's life.. and I think we need to stay away from this judgement also. We need to leave it to God. It seems like sometimes people try to "will" their loved ones to heaven, when in life no fruits of walking with God were evident.
So.. we can have a certain assurance of a person being in "heaven", based on the fruits of their walk, and at the same time, we can only have hope for a person whose life up to their death has not appeared to be under God's grace. And this hope can be there because we trust all things to an all-knowing, wise and just God who does all things well.
I understand where you are coming from, Troop, but "warning people that unless they change their life, they will probably go to hell", or pronouncing a judgement on a person who has died "they have gone to hell" are two entirely different things.
I'm really not focused on the proclamations as much as I am the postulations. I think that it should be just as easy to say "They are probably going to hell unless they change their life" as much as it is to say "They probably went to hell." After all, the only thing different is that the person is dead. Just because they are dead does not mean the postulation should be any different, right? That's why I asked the original question the way I did and I also focused it towards people like me who have clearly not embraced the Christian faith. It would be a pretty fair assumption to say "Based on what I believe, Troop will probably go to hell" just as easily as it would be to say after I died that "Based on what I believe, Troop is probably in hell."
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
We simply do not know. And like I said in my previous post, one of the reasons we don't make the judgement is because we know the love of God..
Perhaps you don't make the judgment towards family members (nor do I recall you ever making one towards me - thank you, by the way) but it's certainly no secret that touting how horrible my "life" is going to be in hell is most definitely a common point of persuasion for many who believe, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
we know that He loved that individual more than we did, and made every choice available to him. We don't know what went on behind the scenes. I don't believe that God necessarily gives everyone a last-minute over-powering call before they die.. but at some point in their life, they received the call. God did His part. And on this we have our hope. We still believe that unless the person changed their life, they would not have made it to heaven.. we just do not know if they accepted the grace offered, or not.
If that were the case I think the call would be the same for all people. As I recently mentioned on another post, it wouldn't seem fair if the call came once from a group of missionaries traveling through the heart of Baghdad and they handed a guy a Bible whereas my "call" may be the enormous amount of Christian influence that I've grown up around. I mean, it just doesn't seem fair to say that we're going to take two people - one completely immersed in a different cultural and religious background and give him one small little "sign"; and then we're going to take Troop who has debated the topic and lived amongst Christians his entire life and then God is going to judge the two of us equally? That doesn't sound very fair... You would think that the "sign" would be the same for all of us and it would be absolutely unmistakable. In fact, it would be so unmistakable that everyone would agree that it came from a specific deity, right? Yet, the large variety of religions around the world shows me that if there are "signs" being given they must be very confusing and not indicative of any one particular God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
We also say sometimes "that person is in heaven". Often we can say this statement with assurance... the person has shown by their life an evidence of walking with God.. and of course you might say that at the very last minute they might have turned against God, so we don't know, and while I suppose this COULD happen, it would be highly unlikely.
I understand what you're saying and I agree. It would probably be much easier to say from your perspective "Alpha is in heaven" as opposed to "Troop is in heaven." Sure, it could be possible that Alpha changed his mind right before the bus plowed him over (sorry Alpha - it's late and that's all I could think of ) but it would probably be very unlikely. Similarly, it would probably be unlikely for me to see the bus headed my way and in two seconds I have done the whole conversion thing. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not very. Therefore, the distinction would be a little easier to say "Troop is probably in hell" right? It doesn't mean that I am in hell it just means that based on what I say in my life that the chances are more probable that I'm sharpening Lucifer's horns than cloud surfing, right?
Therefore, this distinction could and should probably also be made for family members too. Most of us have at least ONE family member who we could probably say is not a Christian, right? I mean, they say they believe in God and all that but they don't really act like it and they don't really embrace it like some other members of the family. Again, it doesn't mean they weren't deeply connected with God but based on perceived actions and perhaps speech, the observational results could probably lead us to believe that indeed that person is probably not enjoying his "afterlife", right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
I believe (and I think you mentioned it) that there is alot of loud proclaiming "he went to heaven" in the face of severe doubts on the person's life.. and I think we need to stay away from this judgement also. We need to leave it to God. It seems like sometimes people try to "will" their loved ones to heaven, when in life no fruits of walking with God were evident.
Well, again, it depends on the context. I certainly feel that you know your family members better than most people do and so you know what the chances are (based on what you believe) of this person being more likely or less likely to go to heaven or hell. But, I do think that people spuriously just sit back and say "He's in a better place now." I actually saw the mother of a guy who was executed for raping and murdering a child being interviewed on Dateline (or something like it) and she was outraged that her son was executed. One of her comments was "But that's ok. He's in a better place now." Well, perhaps he is. But, wouldn't it be more than likely that he's rotting in hell? Certainly his mother feels like he's in heaven, but come on, we can all be pretty sure he's probably not based on his actions. It doesn't mean he didn't fully repent and ask to be forgiven but we'll reserve him for the "more than likely not in heaven" crowd, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
So.. we can have a certain assurance of a person being in "heaven", based on the fruits of their walk, and at the same time, we can only have hope for a person whose life up to their death has not appeared to be under God's grace. And this hope can be there because we trust all things to an all-knowing, wise and just God who does all things well.
I agree but the distinction should also be made for those who were obviously not in "God's walk" right? I mean, if we're going to say "He's probably in heaven now" why should we not make the distinction of saying "He's probably in hell now"?? After all, most Christians believe that there are two places you go after you die: Either heaven or hell. That means that some will go to heaven and some will go to hell. If we're going to postulate on who "more than likely" went to heaven it should be just as easy to postulate on who "more than likely" went to hell, right? I know it's not pretty to think of but this is what many people believe. I think the full reality of it should be thought out, no?
Thanks for your post, Troop.. I did read it all over and mostly agree with it.
The bottom line is, tho, we are not the judge. God is. I would feel very uncomfortable proclaiming "that person went to hell" because I do not know .. similarly, I would feel uncomfortable walking up to a person and telling them "you are going to hell", because, again, I do not know. I am not the judge. That is not my call. There are judgmental groups of people who play God and make no mistake in letting others know who they think went or is going to hell.
What I can do is to warn that "unless salvation is accepted, you will go to to hell". While there is life, there is a chance to change. After death, we leave it with God and He will judge.
As I mentioned, there is a joy and assurance that comes with "the death of the righteous" that is not there when we lose someone who has not lived for God. We need to be careful who we say is "in heaven" also.. we are not the judge of that either, and salvation is only by God's grace. He does not need to give it to us.
Thanks for your post, Troop.. I did read it all over and mostly agree with it.
The bottom line is, tho, we are not the judge. God is. I would feel very uncomfortable proclaiming "that person went to hell" because I do not know .. similarly, I would feel uncomfortable walking up to a person and telling them "you are going to hell", because, again, I do not know. I am not the judge. That is not my call. There are judgmental groups of people who play God and make no mistake in letting others know who they think went or is going to hell.
What I can do is to warn that "unless salvation is accepted, you will go to to hell". While there is life, there is a chance to change. After death, we leave it with God and He will judge.
As I mentioned, there is a joy and assurance that comes with "the death of the righteous" that is not there when we lose someone who has not lived for God. We need to be careful who we say is "in heaven" also.. we are not the judge of that either, and salvation is only by God's grace. He does not need to give it to us.
But I think I'm repeating myself...
I don't mean to make you bash your head against the wall but I do not understand one thing...
If we as people are not to judge who is going to heaven or hell after they die then why should they make a determination of who is going to heaven or hell to someone when they are alive?
Perhaps I misunderstand? Please do wear a pad around your forehead when talking to me.
I don't mean to make you bash your head against the wall but I do not understand one thing...
If we as people are not to judge who is going to heaven or hell after they die then why should they make a determination of who is going to heaven or hell to someone when they are alive?
Perhaps I misunderstand? Please do wear a pad around your forehead when talking to me.
Good Night/Day!
We can judge our actions and those of others in this life by comparing them to the Word of God. Of course, we can't see the whole picture. We can't actually see a person's heart, but actions are a good guage.
According to the Bible, if you accept Jesus and remain under God's grace, you will go to heaven. If you reject Jesus, you will go to hell.
That is all we can say based on the Word of God. God is the final judge and knows whether someone has accepted the gift of grace or not.
Good night! I think I should go home and go to bed too.... and it's only Tuesday!
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) but it would probably be very unlikely. Similarly, it would probably be unlikely for me to see the bus headed my way and in two seconds I have done the whole conversion thing. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not very. Therefore, the distinction would be a little easier to say "Troop is probably in hell" right? It doesn't mean that I am in hell it just means that based on what I say in my life that the chances are more probable that I'm sharpening Lucifer's horns than cloud surfing, right? 
