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I think Troop wants to know if a person is faithful enough to say that a good person is in heaven as his eternalreward.. Is he not also faithful enough to say a bad person is in hell suffering his eternal punishment..I don't think he wants to hear the thou shall not judge thing, he wants to hear about your faith that makes one so bold in their testimonials and in their ministeriung to those who are not believers or those you would like to think the way you do about matters of God..
This is the reason it is so hard to witness to a nonbeliever..his tough questions are ignored..
I think a nonbeliever is most impressed and interested in what a person believes, if he just tells him what he believes and leaves all the bible verses out of the answer. Personally I go with the belief that each journey begins with one small step..That being one simple answer that so many avoid answering..
Blue, I see where you and Troop are coming from, but I'll say this... no matter how "faithful" I am, I cannot say whether a person who has died is in heaven or in hell. "Yup, this guy went to heaven, but unfortunately that one didn't make it." That is not my job.. I cannot see beyond the natural into the spiritual.
Like I said before, there is a certain peace and assurance we can have upon the death of someone whose life has shown that they walked with the Lord.. we talk about them being with God.. "Grandpa's in heaven" etc. I don't see anything wrong with feeling this way... We have peace about it. But to put ourself in God's position and claim to know everything that goes behind the scenes is going a bit beyond this.
But I don't blatantly proclaim that a person is in heaven when their life has not shown it... neither do I say, "well, that person is in hell." I may have severe doubts about a person's salvation, but I can leave the final judgment to God.
The difference between saying "Grandpa's in heaven" or "Aunt Gertrude is in hell" is because of what I know God to be.. "not willing that any should perish". He will not let someone die without a choice to turn to Him. It may not be the day of their death... it may be weeks, years, or even decades before their death, but God calls all mankind.. He is continually calling. I can leave this judgment to Him. I talked about the recent funeral I was at.. this opened my eyes to some of what I am talking about. We have no idea everything that is going on in a person's life.. we can't see how "big" God is. This does not change the fact that their eternal destiny will hinge on whether they have accepted the gift of grace offered or not.
There are people who loudly proclaim who they think is going to hell or who went to hell, but their life speaks of being judgmental, rather than "faithful".. as I'm sure you'd agree.
Again, God is the judge of our destiny... we are not. We cannot be.
Blue, I see where you and Troop are coming from, but I'll say this... no matter how "faithful" I am, I cannot say whether a person who has died is in heaven or in hell. "Yup, this guy went to heaven, but unfortunately that one didn't make it." That is not my job.. I cannot see beyond the natural into the spiritual.
Like I said before, there is a certain peace and assurance we can have upon the death of someone who's life has shown that they walked with the Lord.. we talk about them being with God.. "Grandpa's in heaven" etc. I don't see anything wrong with feeling this way... We have peace about it. But to put ourself in God's position and claim to know everything that goes behind the scenes is going a bit beyond this.
But I don't blatantly proclaim that a person is in heaven when their life has not shown it... neither do I say, "well, that person is in hell." I may have severe doubts about a person's salvation, but I can leave the final judgment to God.
The difference between saying "Grandpa's in heaven" or "Aunt Gertrude is in hell" is because of what I know God to be.. "not willing that any should perish". He will not let someone die without a choice to turn to Him. It may not be the day of their death... it may be weeks, years, or even decades before their death, but God calls all mankind.. He is continually calling. I can leave this judgment to Him. I talked about the recent funeral I was at.. this opened my eyes to some of what I am talking about. We have no idea everything that is going on in a person's life.. we can't see how "big" God is.
There are people who loudly proclaim who they think is going to hell or who went to hell, but their life speaks of being judgmental, rather than "faithful".. as I'm sure you'd agree.
Again, God is the judge of our destiny... we are not. We cannot be.
cg81,
I really do understand your point of view and I really don't fault you for trying because I really don't think you're trying to skirt the issue. I just don't think you understand what I'm getting at and some of it may be my fault for not conveying what it is I'm trying to get across properly. For that, I apologize and I will try once again.
When you say something along the lines of "Grandpa is in heaven" you base that upon your perceptions of his life. The way he talked the talk and walked the walk. You have enough faith that supports the idea that what you believe in to get to heaven is also what you feel Grandpa did in his life and therefore you have enough faith to say that based upon your faith he is probably in heaven. I'm not saying you're making a clear cut final judgment or that you're making an assertion but you are using the context of your belief to support the idea that Grandpa is in heaven, right?
In that same light, there are people who are in our lives (friends, family members, people like moi) who based upon the context of your belief you would be inclined to believe that they would probably be residing in hell, right? Again, this is not an assertion or a final judgment but an opinion based on what you believe.
What I find, cg81, is that people are very quick to make the distinction that their loved one is probably in heaven but fail to make the distinction or refuse to make the distinction that their loved one is probably in hell.
With that being said, and if we resort to the notion such as that which you admit in that you do not know God's decisions than what is the need to preach the gospel in this life? If we drop this argument to the peg in that which we do not know what God is going to make his final determination, than how can you be so sure about what you witness to me is the truth?
I think it is a rare Christian who can be candid about their thoughts on hell without appearing like a hateful nutjob. I think that's why we are seeing the answers that are here (not that many Christians have responded).
I do know of one such Christian, though.
A friend of the family reluctantly admitted that one of my dead relatives was probably in hell. This was at the wake. And the person in question was not a hate-filled "fundy" -- just a normal Christian who stood by her belief that many will never be saved, including this dead (and well-loved) relative. It was shocking - but also refreshingly honest.
I really do understand your point of view and I really don't fault you for trying because I really don't think you're trying to skirt the issue. I just don't think you understand what I'm getting at and some of it may be my fault for not conveying what it is I'm trying to get across properly. For that, I apologize and I will try once again.
..maybe we'll get this straight yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
If we drop this argument to the peg in that which we do not know what God is going to make his final determination, than how can you be so sure about what you witness to me is the truth?
I know what God will do.. it says in His word.
Those who accept Jesus' sacrifice covering their sins will be saved.
Those who do not will not be saved and will go to hell.
That is truth.
Quote:
In that same light, there are people who are in our lives (friends, family members, people like moi) who based upon the context of your belief you would be inclined to believe that they would probably be residing in hell, right? Again, this is not an assertion or a final judgment but an opinion based on what you believe.
Absolutely. If someone asks me about someone who has lived an ungodly life up to the moment of their death, I would probably answer them in this way, "Unfortunately, we don't have any assurance of their salvation.. all we can do is hope." I'm not going to say "He's in hell." Why not? That would be pronouncing something that is outside of my realm.
As I said, God is big. BIG, BIG, BIG. There have been different times when I have heard of someone dying who has not lived for the Lord.. and later you hear things like "In the last few weeks it seemed like he was softening" or "He seemed different." Does this happen all the time? No. People are taken suddenly, with no clues as to what their last days/hours/years were like. Sometimes someone is taken in circumstances where you know no Christian should be found in... leaving a hopeless feeling. We can't ignore or deny the facts... we know that there is basically no hope for their salvation.. and yet, every moment leading up to their death, grace was still available. I would never say with authority about such a person "that person is in heaven".. yet, because of God's grace, there was a chance to accept the offer of salvation until the moment of death. Was this accepted? Even tho the chance is slimslimslim, only God knows for certain.
I agree with your point that people today are quick to say that their loved ones are in a better place, in heaven, etc, sometimes against glaring inconsistancies. This is also out of place, as I mentioned.. and goes along with the watered-down gospel that so many main-stream churches are presenting. I agree.. it is hypocritical to say to someone "you are going to hell" and then when they die with no evidence of change "he is in a better place". There needs to be more soberness... less denying of the facts, and more accepting of the fact that how we live has eternal consequences. We need to realize that such a person may not be, and very likely was not, saved.. and this should cause us to make sure steps to our own salvation.
But I'm still not going to say "he's in hell"! Like b.frank's friend he mentioned in the post below, I wouldn't be reluctant to say that we had no assurance of someone's salvation.. or that he probably didn't make it. I'll just leave the official pronouncement to God and the WBC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank
I think it is a rare Christian who can be candid about their thoughts on hell without appearing like a hateful nutjob. I think that's why we are seeing the answers that are here (not that many Christians have responded).
I do know of one such Christian, though.
A friend of the family reluctantly admitted that one of my dead relatives was probably in hell. This was at the wake. And the person in question was not a hate-filled "fundy" -- just a normal Christian who stood by her belief that many will never be saved, including this dead (and well-loved) relative. It was shocking - but also refreshingly honest.
But I'm still not going to say "he's in hell"! Like b.frank's friend he mentioned in the post below, I wouldn't be reluctant to say that we had no assurance of someone's salvation.. or that he probably didn't make it. I'll just leave the official pronouncement to God and the WBC.
I should add that the friend I'm talking about will never be forgiven by certain members of the family, and I can understand why.
I felt some respect for the Christian for at least being "non-hypocritical", but it was still difficult to hear -- and just feels malicious, despite the intent.
I think it is a rare Christian who can be candid about their thoughts on hell without appearing like a hateful nutjob. I think that's why we are seeing the answers that are here (not that many Christians have responded).
Yeah, I find it interesting that the usual suspects who are generally quick with God's word or the scriptures are keeping quite on this one.
I have yet to work out if it is because they are stumped on the question (i.e., it is a new one that they have not been asked and therefore not well versed in their response) and are in need of some consultation before they respond or if it is because they do feel that one of their family probably is now residing in Hell? Or is it because their real answer contradicts what they are preaching?
I think that this is a good question to be asked, but the personal bias that lays with deceased relatives is going to skew the emotions a bit. It is easy to say that the gay man who lived down the street went to Hell, or Hitler or Stalin, but when these people are a part of your immediate family you will search out that one redeeming quality that they have and hope that it is enough.
By the way, I am not equating gay men with historical dictators or insinuating that homosexuality is wrong.
According to your point of view do you believe that it is very likely that I will go to hell when I die?
No, I think it's highly unlikely. Hell is prepared for those that reject Christ and turn His free gift of salvation down. I'm holding out hope for you until you draw your last breath.
I have yet to work out if it is because they are stumped on the question (i.e., it is a new one that they have not been asked and therefore not well versed in their response) and are in need of some consultation before they respond or if it is because they do feel that one of their family probably is now residing in Hell? Or is it because their real answer contradicts what they are preaching?
It might be because of the tasteless way certain posts have been worded, as if Christians get some kind of superiority complex by thinking someone rejected Christ up until the last minute.
Don't you see?
We actually care.
I actually care for you, for Troop for everyone....and, like God, I don't want to see anyone perish. I also don't want to fall if I step off a cliff, but if I do, I will.
Considering those that denied Christ up until death is a heart-wrenching thing for a Christian. I get no pleasure from it at all.
I've said here many times that I wish the false teaching of Universalism were true, but sadly, I don't believe it is.
And somewhere here recently even Troop agreed with that.
Anyway, that's why I don't think you're getting the responses you might want. While Troop and others joked about Hell and bringing hotdogs and grilling like it's some kind of big joke, we blinded, fairy tale following Christians really believe in it.
And it's not funny to us.
Not even to think about on folks that have mocked us and our God at every opportunity. I'd love to see you all in Heaven.
Anyway, you want an answer to your OP, Troop?
I'd say yeah, there's probably a friend or family member of mine in Hell.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Hell is prepared for those that reject Christ and turn His free gift of salvation down. I'm holding out hope for you until you draw your last breath.
Then, like me, you will be judged.
Then, following this logic, A person can be a rapist, serial murderer, and the worst kind of criminal, yet if he accepts Christ and his "salvation" during the last 5 years of his life he's gonna be spared from hell? but a good person who strived all his life to love God and express it into the love he gives away to those who he meets in his life, always forgiving even tho those who did really evil things to him, but believes something "unchristian" will be tortured forever?
I wonder what would Jesus think about the evolution of his teachings had, from it's original meaning, to it's current meaning.
Then, following this logic, A person can be a rapist, serial murderer, and the worst kind of criminal, yet if he accepts Christ and his "salvation" during the last 5 years of his life he's gonna be spared from hell? but a good person who strived all his life to love God and express it into the love he gives away to those who he meets in his life, always forgiving even tho those who did really evil things to him, but believes something "unchristian" will be tortured forever?
I wonder what would Jesus think about the evolution of his teachings had, from it's original meaning, to it's current meaning.
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