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Not Mystic here, but I felt compelled to respond to this.
There are other ways to experience God than through Jesus. I believe we ALL are given that gift and possibility everyday. I grew up with atheists and never had an inkling toward anything spiritual until in college I experienced a miracle with Jesus. I never got involved with organized religion but this “relationship “ phenomenon with Jesus opened the door for me to experience GOD.
I many times wrestled during contemplative prayer, often in ANGER, as to the very question you asked above—why me, and not my husband or others?
My husband grew up steeped with Catholics and catholic schooling. He was an angry devoted atheist when I met him and for good reasons when I hear his horror stories of his Catholic experience and their teachings.
He could not separate his hate for Catholicism with hate for “God.” As he was taught god was a vengeful jealous “father” image pouring out constant guilt and fear of hell. The priests and nuns were mean and unloving.
Then in his late 50s he became obsessed with quantum physics . My husband is an Emmy winning documentary journalist (PBS, Frontline, etc). For years He fervently read, studied, watched TED talks on everything he could find. At the same time he started meditating and experiencing a sacred STILLNESS. And the verse or perennial spiritual truth “Be still and know that I am God.” Happened for him - but not through a relationship with Jesus.
. To make a long story short — Jesus was my portal to God, and quantum physics was my husband’s although the word “God” still carries too much religious bagage for him, but we can use the word “THAT” and it works perfect in our conversations.
And my point is — your sense of betrayal in not personally experiencing Jesus may instead be your gift, your door — the fact you are so obsessed with an impulse to stir the pot and ask these hard questions and force deep inquiry where so many others avoid or are fearful of — “perhaps” that obsessive impulse will be your opening, your door —instead of through Jesus—to eventually know/experience God. ❤️
I'm glad you responded, Rose because it gave me a chance to respond from the vantage point of an ex-Chrstian, now atheist who has been there, done that:
>>>>>"Jesus was my portal to God"<<<<<
Now as I have said many times before to various people: if belief in Jesus is what gets you to the end of a very harrowing day in a very harrowing life and you don't know how you'd make it to the end of each day without him, then by all means continue to believe in him. I ALWAYS say: use whatever tools you have at your disposal whether it be sex, drugs, rock 'n roll and yes, even Jesus to get you to safe harbor at the end of the day.
Now having given that disclaimer, let me point out what I hope is a very succinct and direct question to any Christian who's willing to try to answer it. You must undrstand that before you can get me to believe in Jesus you must give me a pertinent response to this question. Now please, you and other Christians reading this think long and hard on my question:
If God had wanted us to believe Jesus is his divine son sent to earth to die for our sins, why didn't God leave a mountain of evidence for Jesus SO COMPELLING that no one in their right mind could deny Jesus really lived and died for our sins and that all those supernatural events accompanying his crucifixion--the darkness, the zombie saints rising from their tombs--really did happen?
Please don't give the stock answer all Christians give: "He did leave proof. He left the Bible."
No serious scholar considers the Bible proof Jesus was the son of God. They will sometimes acknowledge it is proof that someone completely human lived upon which the gospels Jesus character was based.
Now please let me point out the reality of the situation as it relates to my question:
God left no such evidence for Jesus being on earth. No credible historian of the first century gives any mention at all of a Jesus Christ nor do any of them give a testimony that they witnessed his presence or the miraculous supernatural events surrounding his death, this despite the gospels' claims that Jesus' fame as a miracle worker spread throughout the Mediterranean region.
Now let me ask another question:
If Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit planned this grand salvation of mankind via Jesus' death trillions of years before the creation of the universe and then went through all this trouble to set up just perfectly for Jesus to die in 30 CE, does it make any sense at all that God wouldn't leave behind a single mention of Jesus from one person who witnessed his death?
Before you can get me to believe that God is preparing me to discover Jesus through all my inquiries you have to give credible answers to these two questions. I'll be waiting.
I'm glad you responded, Rose because it gave me a chance to respond from the vantage point of an ex-Chrstian, now atheist who has been there, done that:
>>>>>"Jesus was my portal to God"<<<<<
Now as I have said many times before to various people: if belief in Jesus is what gets you to the end of a very harrowing day in a very harrowing life and you don't know how you'd make it to the end of each day without him, then by all means continue to believe in him. I ALWAYS say: use whatever tools you have at your disposal whether it be sex, drugs, rock 'n roll and yes, even Jesus to get you to safe harbor at the end of the day.
But you only pay lip service to this little 'disclaimer', often faulting Christians for believing. THAT'S the problem.
Quote:
Now having given that disclaimer, let me point out what I hope is a very succinct and direct question to any Christian who's willing to try to answer it. You must undrstand that before you can get me to believe in Jesus you must give me a pertinent response to this question. Now please, you and other Christians reading this think long and hard on my question:
If God had wanted us to believe Jesus is his divine son sent to earth to die for our sins, why didn't God leave a mountain of evidence for Jesus SO COMPELLING that no one in their right mind could deny Jesus really lived and died for our sins and that all those supernatural events accompanying his crucifixion--the darkness, the zombie saints rising from their tombs--really did happen?
Once again thrill, why does God have to do things your way? Do you really believe that if God left this "mountain of evidence" that EVERYONE would believe in him? Sure, they might believe he existed. They might believe that he even performed miracles. But heck, satan was witness to those miracles too, and satan isn't in heaven.
So, even if EVERYONE believed that God exists, not everyone would want to worship Him.
Quote:
Please don't give the stock answer all Christians give: "He did leave proof. He left the Bible."
I didn't.
Quote:
No serious scholar considers the Bible proof Jesus was the son of God. They will sometimes acknowledge it is proof that someone completely human lived upon which the gospels Jesus character was based.
Now please let me point out the reality of the situation as it relates to my question:
God left no such evidence for Jesus being on earth. No credible historian of the first century gives any mention at all of a Jesus Christ nor do any of them give a testimony that they witnessed his presence or the miraculous supernatural events surrounding his death, this despite the gospels' claims that Jesus' fame as a miracle worker spread throughout the Mediterranean region.
Now let me ask another question:
If Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit planned this grand salvation of mankind via Jesus' death trillions of years before the creation of the universe and then went through all this trouble to set up just perfectly for Jesus to die in 30 CE, does it make any sense at all that God wouldn't leave behind a single mention of Jesus from one person who witnessed his death?
Before you can get me to believe that God is preparing me to discover Jesus through all my inquiries you have to give credible answers to these two questions. I'll be waiting.
He DID leave behind people who witnessed his death and later wrote down what happened. The fact that you don't want to believe, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
But you only pay lip service to this little 'disclaimer', often faulting Christians for believing. THAT'S the problem.
Once again thrill, why does God have to do things your way? Do you really believe that if God left this "mountain of evidence" that EVERYONE would believe in him? Sure, they might believe he existed. They might believe that he even performed miracles. But heck, satan was witness to those miracles too, and satan isn't in heaven.
So, even if EVERYONE believed that God exists, not everyone would want to worship Him.
I didn't.
He DID leave behind people who witnessed his death and later wrote down what happened. The fact that you don't want to believe, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And once again, Mink none of your answers satisfy the questions except in your own mind.
God did NOT leave behind any credible witnesses to Jesus. The gospels are NOT credible testimony to Jesus' existence. They were written by anonymous Greek scholars who never witnessed Jesus and were writing 50-100 years after his supposed crucifixion.
...
He DID leave behind people who witnessed his death and later wrote down what happened. The fact that you don't want to believe, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And, the fact that you want to believe, doesn't mean it did happen.
And once again, Mink none of your answers satisfy the questions except in your own mind.
God did NOT leave behind any credible witnesses to Jesus. The gospels are NOT credible testimony to Jesus' existence. They were written by anonymous Greek scholars who never witnessed Jesus and were writing 50-100 years after his supposed crucifixion.
You mean, He didn't leave behind any witnesses that *you* think are "credible."
While the Gospels were 'published' so many years after Jesus' crucifixion, it doesn't mean they weren't started while Jesus was still alive.
If God had wanted us to believe Jesus is his divine son sent to earth to die for our sins, why didn't God leave a mountain of evidence for Jesus SO COMPELLING that no one in their right mind could deny Jesus really lived and died for our sins and that all those supernatural events accompanying his crucifixion--the darkness, the zombie saints rising from their tombs--really did happen?
Please don't give the stock answer all Christians give: "He did leave proof. He left the Bible."
Now let me ask another question:
If Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit planned this grand salvation of mankind via Jesus' death trillions of years before the creation of the universe and then went through all this trouble to set up just perfectly for Jesus to die in 30 CE, does it make any sense at all that God wouldn't leave behind a single mention of Jesus from one person who witnessed his death?
Before you can get me to believe that God is preparing me to discover Jesus through all my inquiries you have to give credible answers to these two questions. I'll be waiting.
The problem with your questions is that they do NOT represent what God wants nor why Jesus came as a Human. All this nonsense about why Jesus came, why He had to die, what it has to do with our sins, and what God wants us to believe about Jesu is a convoluted and very primitive human misunderstanding, period. What we believe is only important because of what it motivates us to BECOME, not because it pleases God to have us believe it!!! We truly are God's children and that means we are here to develop and mature our "Spirits" within our physical "wombs." Our death will simply be when we are "born again" as Spirits.
NONE of us were developing as Spirits because we were completely carnal and fully absorbed in our physical existence. That is why God's Holy Spirit came as the HUMAN Jesus. It is WHY His birth was such "Good Tidings of Great Joy to All People!!!" He incarnated God's Holy Spirit to humanity connecting our collective spirits with God permanently. That is how we were all saved. Our salvation has nothing to do with us or what we believe or do not believe. BUT if we do not believe in Jesus, we might not emulate Him and His agape love which would lead to spiritual failure. What that failure entails is unknown but it is probably not pleasant!!!
Our real task is to mature into INDEPENDENT, self-directing Spirits who WANT to be like Jesus, NOT forced into it by fear or lured by rewards or other EXTERNAL factors. The absolute proof or knowledge you seek would actually be counterproductive because it might not reflect what kind of Spirit we actually have BECOME, and actually want. Ironically, your rejection of all that external nonsense and your internal desire to meet God reveals a more successful spiritual development and maturity. Unfortunately, it is currently misdirected by your prior conditioning and indoctrination and your abreaction to the barbaric, NON-SPIRITUAL, and primitive nonsense of our ancestors.
You mean, He didn't leave behind any witnesses that *you* think are "credible."
While the Gospels were 'published' so many years after Jesus' crucifixion, it doesn't mean they weren't started while Jesus was still alive.
Noooooooo, It's not what I think, it's what credible Biblical scholars think:
"Modern critical scholars consider both to be non-historical. Many biblical scholars view the discussion of historicity as secondary, given that gospels were primarily written as theological documents rather than historical accounts."
The scholarly consensus is that they are the work of unknown Christians and were composed c. 68-110 AD. The majority of New Testament scholars agree that the Gospels do not contain eyewitness accounts; but that they present the theologies of their communities rather than the testimony of eyewitnesses.
I'm not sure you really caught that, given that I have told you so many times before and you keep saying the same things. So one point at a time:
Modern scholars consider the gospels to be theological documents, NOT historical accounts.
The majority of New Testament scholars agree that the gospels are NOT eyewitness accounts.
I'm still not sure if you caught all that but we'll see.
Your legal training does you proud. You argue the way a lawyer would who knows his client is guilty and so (s)he throws out hundreds of wildly improbable defenses in the hopes that one or two might stick. It doesn't work that way in historical analysis, Mink. It's either historically verifiable or it's not.
I'm glad you responded, Rose because it gave me a chance to respond from the vantage point of an ex-Chrstian, now atheist who has been there, done that:
>>>>>"Jesus was my portal to God"<<<<<
Before you can get me to believe that God is preparing me to discover Jesus through all my inquiries you have to give credible answers to these two questions. I'll be waiting.
Thrill, you need to read my response again without blinding filters — as I went out of my way to make the point and even give an example that you can experience God without Jesus, so why are you falsely insinuating I’m saying God is preparing you to discover Jesus ???? :
The problem with your questions is that they do NOT represent what God wants nor why Jesus came as a Human. All this nonsense about why Jesus came, why He had to die, what it has to do with our sins, and what God wants us to believe about Jesu is a convoluted and very primitive human misunderstanding, period. What we believe is only important because of what it motivates us to BECOME, not because it pleases God to have us believe it!!! We truly are God's children and that means we are here to develop and mature our "Spirits" within our physical "wombs." Our death will simply be when we are "born again" as Spirits.
NONE of us were developing as Spirits because we were completely carnal and fully absorbed in our physical existence. That is why God's Holy Spirit came as the HUMAN Jesus. It is WHY His birth was such "Good Tidings of Great Joy to All People!!!" He incarnated God's Holy Spirit to humanity connecting our collective spirits with God permanently. That is how we were all saved. Our salvation has nothing to do with us or what we believe or do not believe. BUT if we do not believe in Jesus, we might not emulate Him and His agape love which would lead to spiritual failure. What that failure entails is unknown but it is probably not pleasant!!!
Our real task is to mature into INDEPENDENT, self-directing Spirits who WANT to be like Jesus, NOT forced into it by fear or lured by rewards or other EXTERNAL factors. The absolute proof or knowledge you seek would actually be counterproductive because it might not reflect what kind of Spirit we actually have BECOME, and actually want. Ironically, your rejection of all that external nonsense and your internal desire to meet God reveals a more successful spiritual development and maturity. Unfortunately, it is currently misdirected by your prior conditioning and indoctrination and your abreaction to the barbaric, NON-SPIRITUAL, and primitive nonsense of our ancestors.
What I don't seem to be able to get you to understand, Mystic is that the average person contemplating accepting Jesus or not is not interested in esoteric intellectual definitions of what exactly constituted Jesus. They are simple-minded people who only care if Jesus was real or not, and my questions go to "was Jesus real or was he imaginary", certainly not your brand of "what was Jesus' specific mission to the Jews and by extension to the world with respect to the later inclusion of Gentiles combined with not necessarily ignoring the early Essenes' and Gnostics' contribution to the syncretism of Hellenistic attributes and early Jewish beliefs and with regard to how the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE affected this syncretism before as opposed to after the Temple's destruction."
Get what I'm saying, Mystic? Your approach to Jesus is simply too intellectual and too way out there for the average person.
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