For Men With Children - Paternity Test; Child Not Yours? (young, divorce)
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Why is it that "being a man" always involves doing something that's not necessarily in his own interest?
Why should the biological father get a pass, and where are the calls for him to "be a man" instead?
I commend you for doing this. I think that it's wonderful. But this has nothing to do with a situation where the father thought the child was his for years.
People get irked when they hear what they consider a dated term "be a man" - I don't get it...what was so bad about being wise - loyal - patient - honest - honorable and so on?
There is only one kid of father - the biological one...in my situation - he got a pass because - he was not capable of being a man - sure ...he made money - sure he played the part of being respectable - but he was a common liar...and mischief maker...what was I to do..? I let nature and time run it's course...also - I really resent the term bio-logical... I like to stick to the facts...if it comes from the father he is the father - surrogates that are well meaning males are NOT the father - but if they wish to take on the responsiblity - it gets down to one who is stronger protecting the weak - I was stronger.
Your other point - for a woman to lie and dupe a male into thinking that a child is his - is reprehensible - but some woman are just plain survivalists and they are weak and also resort to lies - what are we to do with those weaker than ourselves...we have no choice but to tolerate and protect.
People get irked when they hear what they consider a dated term "be a man" - I don't get it...what was so bad about being wise - loyal - patient - honest - honorable and so on?
There is only one kid of father - the biological one...in my situation - he got a pass because - he was not capable of being a man - sure ...he made money - sure he played the part of being respectable - but he was a common liar...and mischief maker...what was I to do..? I let nature and time run it's course...also - I really resent the term bio-logical... I like to stick to the facts...if it comes from the father he is the father - surrogates that are well meaning males are NOT the father - but if they wish to take on the responsiblity - it gets down to one who is stronger protecting the weak - I was stronger.
Your other point - for a woman to lie and dupe a male into thinking that a child is his - is reprehensible - but some woman are just plain survivalists and they are weak and also resort to lies - what are we to do with those weaker than ourselves...we have no choice but to tolerate and protect.
Here is another example of tolerance and mercy... The oldest son's father was severely burned ...it was some recreational arson that was committed - He got caught in the flames - his legs were so badly damaged that he could barely walk - This lugan was rejected by his family ...brothers mother father etc...because of the shame that he brought on them...
I took him in - put him in my own bed and nursed him back to health...You might ask...why would I be so kind to this "dead beat" trouble maker and liar? His "biological son" - loved his father - no matter what a loser he was - because I loved the son - I could not reject or condemn his father....DID this father appreciate what I did for him? NO...but I did do what was right...showed compassion for the weak - and the SON saw this - and learned from it- the now adult son - is not governed by spite or hate...for that - I am thankful - Others would have persecuted the dead beat dad - I did not.
People get irked when they hear what they consider a dated term "be a man" - I don't get it...what was so bad about being wise - loyal - patient - honest - honorable and so on?
There is only one kid of father - the biological one...in my situation - he got a pass because - he was not capable of being a man - sure ...he made money - sure he played the part of being respectable - but he was a common liar...and mischief maker...what was I to do..? I let nature and time run it's course...also - I really resent the term bio-logical... I like to stick to the facts...if it comes from the father he is the father - surrogates that are well meaning males are NOT the father - but if they wish to take on the responsiblity - it gets down to one who is stronger protecting the weak - I was stronger.
Your other point - for a woman to lie and dupe a male into thinking that a child is his - is reprehensible - but some woman are just plain survivalists and they are weak and also resort to lies - what are we to do with those weaker than ourselves...we have no choice but to tolerate and protect.
That's where you're wrong. We have a choice. We can disassociate ourselves from such people as soon as their fraud and deception is brought into the light. Women are no stronger or weaker, no smarter or dumber, no more or less vulnerable than men. Your notion is sexist.
And what if they can't afford to pay for it? Do my taxes then pay for it? Does wellfare pay for it? Or are the poor just screwed? In reality that is the population that would NOT be able to afford to raise a child, so how does this help them?? Who pays for it?
Good morning,
I know a lot about poverty since I grew up knee deep in it, and trust me, if it's important to them, they'll find the money. If people think the poor aren't coming up with money for vehicles, big screen TV's, furnishing their house, or even an abortion (to use a medical example close to this debate), they are kidding themselves and never grew up around poor people.
I don't want society paying for or mandating any tests. I simply want a cultural shift in attitudes where women won't get upset for a man obtaining his piece of mind. I'd like to see it become as normal as women wanting a marriage license for long term relationship piece of mind. Even in the projects where I grew up, most people had a nice sized TV in their house, bought their kids Jordans and owned a car. If something major came up, they pooled money from family to get it done.
In regards to welfare, your taxes are already paying for it through Medicaid. If a poor person on Medicaid or a rich person on insurance added a $400 test to their $10,000-$20,000 hospital bill it's not going to make much of a difference.
The poverty argument isn't very strong anyway, as 85% of Americans aren't poor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
I'm not against men having this option IF they are not married to the woman. I think it's ridiculous otherwise. If there is no trust, there is no marriage. That is my opinion. I guess IF I wasn't married and some man told me he'd be requiring this when we have kids, I'd move on to the next man. I would think there are a lot of women that would be bothered by that as well (and I don't know and won't claim I do, as you have i other statements).
And that's your choice. Plenty of women out there who won't mind. I don't expect to agree with every woman I meet, just know there are enough I've met out there for this not become an issue.
Why are you FOR this when people are unmarried but AGAINST when they are? I don't see the difference. Using your logic, I could say if one is in a long term relationship without the license, "without trust there is no relationship."
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
Right, but that is different, again. If they left the hosp with the wrong baby it would be due to hospital negligence. What you are proposing is that the woman has cheated and gotten pregnant while married...and the man is trying to prove paternity. Totally different. It undermines the marriage.
There really isn't much difference. If the father signs the birth certificate at the hospital for a baby that isn't his, that's due to the mother's negligence. I'm simply trying to avoid the pain upfront by recommending men tell women upfront they will test their children (or doing it on their own if they are cowards).
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
Again, what if they want it (and actually need it) but can't afford it? So this really isn't open to EVERYONE, this is just open to those that can afford it. Or in your opinion only the well off have this option and all those other men just have to hope and pray?
See my response above about those who are poor obtaining a test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
Guess what...LOTS of men don't pay child support for their biological children and LOTS of men don't pay nearly enough for their biological children. So really, what is her safeguard??
This debate has nothing to do with deadbeat dads. I have no sympathy for deadbeat dads or deadbeat moms and the law should deal with them strongly. I am speaking about paternity tests for men who actually want to have children and want to be in their lives, but just want piece of mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
And I'm not against it, I just think you are going to have a hard time finding a woman that will say "sure honey" because asking for a paternity test implies that she has been unfaithful.
Sorry, but you are wrong in my case. I've had many women say yes to my paternity test requirment and only one say no. Three of those who said yes have actually proposed marriage to me later on in the relationship.
In your world it implies unfaithfulness, not mine. As I said before, I tell women this in the beginning, during the dating or friendship states. I also frame it as a general policy, a just in case, a peace of mind. It has nothing to do with any specific woman personally and the women I've spoken with about this understood that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
Well this paternity testing is your idea...so go ahead and post the poll. I'm really curious...if you say "If a man you were dating said that he'd require paternity testing of all children you have together when you are married, what would your reaction be?"
Based on the typical responses I've read in the past, I'm sure most women ON THIS SITE will be against this idea. I'm glad I've had a different experience in real life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
We got a marriage license so that we could have the financial benefits from one (filing jointly, health benefits were a huge consideration..etc.) not to show a commitment to eachother. A marriage license doesn't ensure that at all, at least in my opinion. I'm not naieve enough to consider that my marriage license will prevent him from cheating or leaving.
Most women I've asked about their need for a marriage license instead of simply getting married in a church without the license come up with the relationship stability argument. All I can do is accept your unique answer as the truth.
One can achieve all of this without obtaining a marriage license. Filing jointly actually has a "marriage penalty". But, whatever works for you.
People get irked when they hear what they consider a dated term "be a man" - I don't get it...what was so bad about being wise - loyal - patient - honest - honorable and so on?
Here's why people get irked: Your definition of "being a man" tries to impose your values on people who don't live that way. Also, it tries to shame men into doing something that's not necessarily in his best interest by attacking his manhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach
There is only one kid of father - the biological one...in my situation - he got a pass because - he was not capable of being a man - sure ...he made money - sure he played the part of being respectable - but he was a common liar...and mischief maker...what was I to do..? I let nature and time run it's course...also - I really resent the term bio-logical... I like to stick to the facts...if it comes from the father he is the father - surrogates that are well meaning males are NOT the father - but if they wish to take on the responsiblity - it gets down to one who is stronger protecting the weak - I was stronger.
That works for you and I commend the path you chose. I wouldn't condemn a man who made a different choice. See, my position is tolerant to both sides and yours isn't. But once again, your situation has nothing to do with the OP of this thread where a man was tricked for years. Your story is one that has choice, in the OP the man had no choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach
Your other point - for a woman to lie and dupe a male into thinking that a child is his - is reprehensible - but some woman are just plain survivalists and they are weak and also resort to lies - what are we to do with those weaker than ourselves...we have no choice but to tolerate and protect.
I'm sorry, but I don't accept this paternalistic view of women. Women are smart enough to weigh their choices, and should have equal responsibilities and consequences as well.
No wonder you give women who lie a pass, you see them as "weaker" than you. How does our ability as men to lift a heavier object come as an advantage these days? We've legislated those advantages out of existence, and I'm fine with that. Or, are you saying that women are emotionally "weaker"?
If that's your opinion, fine. I simply don't agree with it and neither does society these days.
Here is another example of tolerance and mercy... The oldest son's father was severely burned ...it was some recreational arson that was committed - He got caught in the flames - his legs were so badly damaged that he could barely walk - This lugan was rejected by his family ...brothers mother father etc...because of the shame that he brought on them...
I took him in - put him in my own bed and nursed him back to health...You might ask...why would I be so kind to this "dead beat" trouble maker and liar? His "biological son" - loved his father - no matter what a loser he was - because I loved the son - I could not reject or condemn his father....DID this father appreciate what I did for him? NO...but I did do what was right...showed compassion for the weak - and the SON saw this - and learned from it- the now adult son - is not governed by spite or hate...for that - I am thankful - Others would have persecuted the dead beat dad - I did not.
Commendable, but once again there is a clear difference between your story and a man who was TRICKED. Do you not see the difference in choice vs lack of choice here?
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Interesting topic. I think that if you have developed a parental bond with a child, finding out that the child isn't yours would be crushing and induce some serious rage towards your spouse or other half, but I also think that you would find that the parental bond remains. A child that knows you as daddy is your kid.
It isn't the child's fault that he was brought into a world where the father chooses to not be there for support.
If I was with a woman who had situation like this, I would help her find the father for child support, but I would support both the child and woman regardless if it was mine or not. The child deserves a father figure, and if I'm the man for the job, I'll do the best damn job I can for the child.
Why not find a woman to start your own family with, then be the best father figure you can?
I know a lot about poverty since I grew up knee deep in it, and trust me, if it's important to them, they'll find the money. If people think the poor aren't coming up with money for vehicles, big screen TV's, furnishing their house, or even an abortion (to use a medical example close to this debate), they are kidding themselves and never grew up around poor people.
If you think people who are at poverty level can come up with money for TV's, medical expenses, Air Jordans..etc then you really have not seen TRUE poverty. I have delivered meals in my community for those less fortunate and they have NONE of this. Most of these families are doing well if they have heat in their home (many do not). I highly doubt they'd scrape together their money for a paternity test and forgoe the heat and food but maybe I'll ask them the next time I'm there. I could be wrong.
Why are you FOR this when people are unmarried but AGAINST when they are? I don't see the difference. Using your logic, I could say if one is in a long term relationship without the license, "without trust there is no relationship."
Okay, I should have said "one night stands and casual sex" instead of unmarried. That is what I was referring to. Not those in long term, monogomous relationships.
There really isn't much difference. If the father signs the birth certificate at the hospital for a baby that isn't his, that's due to the mother's negligence. I'm simply trying to avoid the pain upfront by recommending men tell women upfront they will test their children (or doing it on their own if they are cowards).
So basically, you think that lying and sneaking behind the womans back to gain a paternity test is okay. Why? If he's too coward to bring these concerns up in person with his spouse (again, great marriage or relationship they have there) you think he should have the right to do this behind her back. So it's okay for HIM to act like a snake, but it's not okay for her to?? Gotcha!
This debate has nothing to do with deadbeat dads. I have no sympathy for deadbeat dads or deadbeat moms and the law should deal with them strongly. I am speaking about paternity tests for men who actually want to have children and want to be in their lives, but just want piece of mind.
If he wants to make sure these are his kids before paying out to raise them, why can't she ensure he'll never cheat or leave so she doesn't have to pay out for the rest of their lives? I'm talking about mothers that want children and want them in their lives but just want that peace of mind that they won't be raising them alone.
Sorry, but you are wrong in my case. I've had many women say yes to my paternity test requirment and only one say no. Three of those who said yes have actually proposed marriage to me later on in the relationship.
You are indeed a rare one.
In your world it implies unfaithfulness, not mine. As I said before, I tell women this in the beginning, during the dating or friendship states. I also frame it as a general policy, a just in case, a peace of mind. It has nothing to do with any specific woman personally and the women I've spoken with about this understood that.
Based on the typical responses I've read in the past, I'm sure most women ON THIS SITE will be against this idea. I'm glad I've had a different experience in real life.
Most women I've asked about their need for a marriage license instead of simply getting married in a church without the license come up with the relationship stability argument. All I can do is accept your unique answer as the truth.
That's interesting, because a marriage license does not guarantee stability at all. You just have to look at the number of divorces to see that. I don't think my answer is all that unique but I'll take the compliment. Thank you.
One can achieve all of this without obtaining a marriage license. Filing jointly actually has a "marriage penalty". But, whatever works for you.
It does work for me, I don't have a job...so I benefit from filing jointly because half of our return is mine. I also have great health benefits because we have a marriage license and if he's ever in the ICU, I get to visit him, among many other benefits of having a marriage license. I never even considered "relationship stability" when we applied for a license to marry.
We are never going to agree on this. I respect your opinion but I do not share it.
If you think people who are at poverty level can come up with money for TV's, medical expenses, Air Jordans..etc then you really have not seen TRUE poverty. I have delivered meals in my community for those less fortunate and they have NONE of this. Most of these families are doing well if they have heat in their home (many do not). I highly doubt they'd scrape together their money for a paternity test and forgoe the heat and food but maybe I'll ask them the next time I'm there. I could be wrong.
Good morning,
My point is people find the money for things that are really important to them. Maybe you deliver meals, but I actually grew up in poverty and lived among those who found and spent money on things I spoke of. It's a lot easier to come up with money for sporadic luxuries if the government is paying for some or all of your bills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
Okay, I should have said "one night stands and casual sex" instead of unmarried. That is what I was referring to. Not those in long term, monogomous relationships.
Thanks for clarifying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
So basically, you think that lying and sneaking behind the womans back to gain a paternity test is okay. Why? If he's too coward to bring these concerns up in person with his spouse (again, great marriage or relationship they have there) you think he should have the right to do this behind her back. So it's okay for HIM to act like a snake, but it's not okay for her to?? Gotcha!
I'm sure you see that I call these men cowards repeatedly. You would also see that I advocate men should be honest and upfront at the beginning of the relationship. If I were in this scenario, I'd ONLY go the honest route. I only presented the "coward option" because I'm tired of getting responses from male cowards who say "what if she gets mad if I want a paternity test?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
If he wants to make sure these are his kids before paying out to raise them, why can't she ensure he'll never cheat or leave so she doesn't have to pay out for the rest of their lives? I'm talking about mothers that want children and want them in their lives but just want that peace of mind that they won't be raising them alone.
No man can prevent cheating, and no woman can prevent a man from leaving her. Not even my solution prevents cheating, it simply prevents him from raising a child that isn't his.
My solution to the women you speak of, is to marry someone who has a career, and take advantage of the divorce and child custody laws that exist. If they don't marry a deadbeat who drifts from job to job, she'll be protected if he leaves her. In addition to that, make sure they have their own education and career as a safety net.
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Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
You are indeed a rare one.
Not really. My poll is about 50/50 so far. So there are even women on City Data who agree with me on this topic, which is quite surprising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
That's interesting, because a marriage license does not guarantee stability at all. You just have to look at the number of divorces to see that. I don't think my answer is all that unique but I'll take the compliment. Thank you.
Women see the stability in the fact that a marriage license protects them in the case of divorce. He can't simply leave with a clean break if they divorce. The social reputation of divorce as "taking him to the cleaners" is a deterrent and gives many men a second thought at simply abandoning their family, even if they have good cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justthe6ofus
It does work for me, I don't have a job...so I benefit from filing jointly because half of our return is mine. I also have great health benefits because we have a marriage license and if he's ever in the ICU, I get to visit him, among many other benefits of having a marriage license. I never even considered "relationship stability" when we applied for a license to marry.
We are never going to agree on this. I respect your opinion but I do not share it.
I'm glad it works for you. Just realize some women have a different idea of why they prefer a marriage license over a wedding without one.
I agree that we're never going to agree. My responses are for the readers more than anything else. I can't leave your points unanswered when I have logical counter-arguments.
Most importantly, thanks for respecting my opinion! I also respect yours, I don't mind a friendly disagreement!
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