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The UN is only listing confirmed deaths. With their estimates they acknowledge it is much larger. Its funny you call the Ukrainians liars when you believe the total nonsense coming out of the Russian side.
They said it is likely larger, but the UN has had access to Mariupol for months. Where are these 22,000 dead civilians that Zelensky is claiming? How would Zelensky know how many civilians are dead in Mariupol? He is just making up numbers because he knows westerners will believe anything their media tells them as long as it justifies their psychotic hatred of Russia.
I don't recall me believing anything that anyone says. Find me my post where I made any specific claim. How would I know?
I only make claims that hold up to my extreme skepticism, and match what I know is true about reality.
With that said, I'm probably more annoyed with Ukrainian claims because I've actually heard them. They're the only claims I ever hear, because they're the only claims repeated in the western media. And they're so ridiculous that it is an insult to my intelligence.
What matters to me is the bigger picture. What really matters in this war, is the "world order". That is what is on the line here. That is what we're fighting for. Ukraine is irrelevant. The Ukrainian people are just as brainwashed as American people, British people, German people, Chinese people, Russian people, etc. The Ukrainian government nationalized all of their media and propagandizes the Ukrainian people 24/7 with all kinds of lies. Ukraine is basically North Korea. This idea that it was some kind of liberal democracy fighting against authoritarianism is straight idiotic.
The problem for Russia is that losing this war is an existential threat to the Russian state. And America losing this war is an existential threat to the existence of NATO and American hegemony. Neither side can afford to lose. Which is why it would have been better if this war had never started at all, and all that would have taken was a neutral Ukraine. Ukraine is not some kind of ethnostate, a third of the population speak Russian, and if Ukraine joined NATO, would essentially be conscripted into an anti-Russian Army. It didn't seem like an unreasonable request. Switzerland has been neutral for hundreds of years because it is also a multiethnic country.
As Putin said in July of last year.... "All the subterfuges associated with the anti-Russia project are clear to us. And we will never allow our historical territories and people close to us living there to be used against Russia. And to those who will undertake such an attempt, I would like to say that this way they will destroy their own country."
Please explain to me why Ukraine has a rightful and perpetual claim to Crimea.
Russia had Crimea before they invaded. Are you saying the Russian's started this war over land that they already had control of? If so that's a stupid war to send your soldiers off to die. What's keeping the Russians from just going home?
Russia had Crimea before they invaded. Are you saying the Russian's started this war over land that they already had control of? If so that's a stupid war to send your soldiers off to die. What's keeping the Russians from just going home?
Ukraine never recognized Crimean annexation, declared they would retake it by force, cut off the water by blocking the North Crimean Canal, while being armed and trained by the United States to end the "Civil War" by force. Zelensky began amassing troops in Eastern Ukraine late last year, and says that the war won't end until Crimea is under the control of Kiev.
If you have time, please read this article from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace from last May. And while reading it, remember that Zelensky was overwhelmingly supported by Eastern Ukrainians because he was the "peace candidate".
PS: The reason I asked about Crimea is because Crimea is symbolic of the entire war. How did Crimea become Ukrainian? How did Eastern Ukraine become Ukrainian? Whose land is it? Why?
Telling the Russian-speaking Ukrainians to leave Ukraine if they don't like the government would be like telling Quebecers to go to France if they don't like the Canadian government.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 10-21-2022 at 11:10 AM..
here's what a poster on quora thinks is the likely scenario for this war..
Quote:
Option 1. Russia grinds Ukraine down and eventually takes over the entire country. Now, Russia has 40 million very unhappy, very hostile people inside it’s borders who have guns and trained to fight. Not a good outcome for the Russian people.
Option 2. Ukraine grinds down Russia and Russia eventually pulls out entirely. Russia has now depleted most of its army of resources and must re-arm, but do so under sanctions. Putin will probably have to purge the army to maintain his own grip on power and probably crack down on protestors. Not a good outcome for the Russia people.
Option 3. A stalemate occurs and Russia maintains its hold on eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Sanctions remain in place, there is growing social instability in Russia, and Russia faces the prospect of long-term military action in the area. Not a good outcome for the Russian people.
The only good option is for Russia to simply withdraw, say “My bad!” and beg the West to go back to the way things were before the war. Not likely.
In a nutshell, there are no good options and no good outcomes. It’s a mess and will continue to b ea mess for … decades.
Option 1 is not going to happen. It's not even on Putin's agenda. The Russians know that would be bad too. So that one can be eliminated.
Option 2 is possible, but unlikely under current circumstances. There is just not enough support from the west to make it happen.
Option 3 is the most likely outcome. Except the sanctions are unlikely to affect Russia any more in the future then they have in the past eight years. The sanctions will only serve to make Russia stronger and more independent, while they prepare for their next war.
Russia had Crimea before they invaded. Are you saying the Russian's started this war over land that they already had control of? If so that's a stupid war to send your soldiers off to die. What's keeping the Russians from just going home?
Russia was hoping for a negotiated settlement where they would have at very least gotten control of and international recognition of eastern Donetsk, eastern Lugansk and Crimea being a part of Russia.
Out of the 6 trillion how much is the deficit spending, 2 trillion? Could you also remind us how much the debt is? 30 something trillion? I do not spend money I don't have, do you?
We don't want to go bankrupt bailing out the world like we did in WWII.
I guess some people don't understand the difference between the U.S. federal government budget and their personal budget.
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Originally Posted by Wintergirl80
That is way too much money to be spent on Ukraine, not to mention what the U.S. has already given to their country.
Very disappointing.
Yes, we should wait until Putin invades some other countries and then come to the rescue like we did in 1941.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Why don't we arm the Ukrainians so they can take Moscow as well?
Not necessary. Russia's continuing failure in Ukraine should spell the end of Putin. Remember how long Khrushchev lasted after the Cuban missile crisis?
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
I hope the nukes start flying.
You've shown your intelligence!
Last edited by villageidiot1; 10-21-2022 at 11:51 AM..
Zelenskyy is over there taking your tax money becoming rich while we have people here that can't even afford food or shelter. Yet we have people crying about Ukraine. Screw Ukraine. Countries get conquered. It happens.
hopefully, once Ukraine has confidently regained control of Kershon, that will be the plucked card that will start the domino effect of Russia getting it's ass kicked completely out of Ukraine, including Crimea and the Donbas region..
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Ukraine Strikes Occupied Kherson as More Russians Flee
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The late Thursday strike on the crossing over the Dnipro River in Kherson killed four people, all of them civilians, and injured 13 others, according to Russian-appointed occupation officials. Yuri Sobolevsky, deputy head of Kherson’s elected regional legislature, said the 11 p.m. strike occurred during curfew hours, when only Russian officials and collaborators with special permits were allowed outdoors.
Russian authorities identified several of the casualties as managers and staff of the Tavria TV channel, which Moscow set up in Kherson after disabling Ukrainian broadcasters in the spring. One of the fatalities was Oleg Klokov, a former staffer of Russian state TV and a former official of the Moscow municipal government who arrived in Kherson to help manage Tavria just two weeks earlier, they said.
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