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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 201 39.64%
No 257 50.69%
Unsure 49 9.66%
Voters: 507. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-10-2023, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,985 posts, read 9,722,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
I wouldn't be so sure. Publications are coming out saying the EU will unfreeze Turkey's EU bid.
Wrong. Nothing says that. Sweden agreed to stop harboring and protecting terrorists, and stop banning arms trades into Turkey, that’s why Turkey agreed to let them into NATO.

It says nothing about Turkey getting into the EU or Ukraine getting into NATO.

Quote:
Sweden has amended its constitution, changed its laws, significantly expanded its counter- terrorism cooperation against the PKK, and resumed arms exports to Turkey.

Sweden will present a roadmap as the basis of its continued fight against terrorism in all its forms and manifestations towards the full implementation of all elements of the Trilateral Memorandum.

Sweden reiterates that it will not provide support to YPG/PYD. Turkey views the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) and its armed wing, the People's Protection Units (YPG), as an extension of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) and categorizes them as terrorist organizations. Ankara argues that the PYD/YPG shares ideological, operational, and organizational links with the PKK, which has been engaged in a decades-long armed insurgency against the Turkish state. Turkey contends that the PYD/YPG's goal of establishing an autonomous Kurdish region in Syria threatens its national security and territorial integrity.

Sweden also reiterates that it will not provide support to the organisation described as FETO in Turkey. The Fethullahist Terrorist Organization (FETO) is an entity that Turkey's government perceives as a clandestine network led by Fethullah Gulen, a Turkish preacher and former ally of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. FETO is accused of orchestrating the failed coup attempt in Turkey in July 2016. Erdogan and his administration maintain that FETO infiltrated various state institutions, including the judiciary, police, military, and education sector, with the aim of overthrowing the government.

The Turkish government considers FETO a terrorist organization due to its alleged involvement in illegal activities, including the coup attempt, and its purported efforts to undermine the state's stability and institutions. Erdogan and his government have outlawed FETO and launched a widespread crackdown on its members, leading to mass arrests, dismissals, and closures of institutions linked to the organization.
https://english.alarabiya.net/News/w...en-s-NATO-bid-
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:17 PM
 
19,256 posts, read 27,919,063 times
Reputation: 20348
Quote:
Originally Posted by G in MP View Post
"Russian soul": National narcissism, seasoned with moral relativism, topped off with a hearty dash of apathy.
Now I'm curious. Did you have a Russian wife and she dropped you? Where's the venom from? As you clearly never met a single Russian in your life and your entire knowledge, how should I say - seems to be preprogrammed by official propaganda?
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
7,817 posts, read 2,761,970 times
Reputation: 3388
ISW Update 7/10/23

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...t-july-10-2023

Quote:
Jul 10, 2023 - Press ISW

Ukrainian officials stated on July 10 that Ukrainian forces have fire control over Bakhmut and Russian ground lines of communication (GLOCs) around the city. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated that Ukrainian forces have taken control of unspecified heights around Bakhmut, allowing Ukrainian forces to establish fire control over Bakhmut itself. Ukrainian officials have recently signaled that Ukraine seeks to trap Russian forces within the city, and it appears that Ukrainian operations in the Bakhmut area in recent days have been intended to slowly envelop Russian troops in Bakhmut and on its flanks. ISW was previously conservative when assessing claims of Russian fire control and general interdiction of Ukrainian lines of communication in and around Bakhmut as Russian forces gradually took control of the settlement, but Ukrainian claims of establishing fire control may be more credible. Both Ukrainian and Russian sources have indicated in recent days that Ukraine is gaining ground in the Bakhmut area and on its southwestern flanks including specific terrain features that can give Ukrainian forces fire advantage. The fear of Ukrainian fire control and imminent threats to Bakhmut is also permeating the Russian information space, and Russian milbloggers have repeatedly expressed fear over Ukrainian forces encircling Russian forces in Bakhmut. Russian sources claimed at least since February that Russian forces maintained fire control over critical Ukrainian GLOCs around Bakhmut, while Ukrainian officials and sources did not express concern over these Russian claims, in contrast, and withdrew their forces in good order in the face of the Wagner Group‘s expensive frontal assaults. The persistent signaling of Ukrainian officials about Ukrainian operational intent in Bakhmut, alongside the clear concern of milbloggers over exactly what this intent may be, suggests that Ukrainian counteroffensive actions in this direction may be credibly threatening the Russian hold on Bakhmut, although it is far too early to forecast the liberation of the city.
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,053 posts, read 14,344,109 times
Reputation: 16901
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Truth to be told - "civil war" that's what's going on now between Russia and Ukraine.
Strongly doubt that.
Ukraine has no love for Russia. During WW2, the liberated Ukrainians volunteered to fight with the Germans against "Uncle Joe Stalin."
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:24 PM
 
19,256 posts, read 27,919,063 times
Reputation: 20348
Quote:
Originally Posted by serger View Post
And US used huge numbers of those during the illegal invasion of Iraq. And Ukraine has used cluster munitions in Donbas since 2014. And NATO has used them the during the bombing campaign in Serbia. So what's your point?
As I said - the point is: QUOD LICET JOVI, NON LICET BOVI. It is GOOD to use by a democratic country that didn't sign convention. Even if to kill civilians. Shrug. It is HORRIBLE to use them by that country political opponent.
Basic double standard.

The use of such weapons against civilians violates the principles of humanitarian law and therefore constitutes a war crime.[8][4]

That goes for Russia. BUT, SAME goes for the USA. You are no better.

On the sidenote. They are very effective, actually.
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:30 PM
 
55 posts, read 25,215 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
These Russian bots are unbelievable. Russia invades Ukraine but it's Ukraine's fault and if the US or anyone else tries to help Ukraine it's their fault too.

Yeah Russia is not a signatory of the CM convention and has been using them in Ukraine. Now all of a sudden USA is bad for giving Ukraine CM. But Russia good for using them.

Russian bots are worried about Ukraine getting CM. The invaders are barely hanging on as it is. When Ukraine uses CM, things will get worse for the invaders.

The CM will be used for clearing mines too.
What are you talking about? And a year ago, a cluster munition arrived in Donetsk. The city center was littered with petal mines. Many children were maimed. Although Ukrainian bots will claim that it was done by the Russians themselves at night. Stupid propaganda.
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:31 PM
 
19,256 posts, read 27,919,063 times
Reputation: 20348
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Strongly doubt that.
Ukraine has no love for Russia. During WW2, the liberated Ukrainians volunteered to fight with the Germans against "Uncle Joe Stalin."
You mean - "liberated" by the Nazi Wermacht and incorporated into its Waffen? Parading with swastikas and Heiling Hitler? Those "liberated"? SS Nachtigal? Those? Up their elbows in blood?
I just love it, when someone with zero know on the epoch posts something heard somewhere.

Oh, and BTW. 3 days ago, Gauleiter Zelensky bent his knee in Poland and apologized to the Polish people for atrocities, committed by exactly those, you referring to.
Attached Thumbnails
Ukraine War-screenshot-2023-07-10-203023.png  
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:37 PM
 
19,256 posts, read 27,919,063 times
Reputation: 20348
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumsunel View Post
What are you talking about? And a year ago, a cluster munition arrived in Donetsk. The city center was littered with petal mines. Many children were maimed. Although Ukrainian bots will claim that it was done by the Russians themselves at night. Stupid propaganda.
And again. I tis OK when done by a progressive democratic country. Quite fine. A la guerre, commte a la guerre. But is VERY BAD, when done by say Russia.
On serious note - thanks. Damn hypocrites.
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:49 PM
 
26,925 posts, read 22,820,771 times
Reputation: 10088
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Strongly doubt that.
Ukraine has no love for Russia. During WW2, the liberated Ukrainians volunteered to fight with the Germans against "Uncle Joe Stalin."

Not "Ukrainians," but very specifically WESTERN Ukrainians.

The very same people that participated in the massacre of Poles and Jewish pogroms.

As for the EASTERN Ukrainians, their fight with Germans was on of the most heroic pages of resistance back in those times.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Guard_(novel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnodon

They were real people and suffered terrible torture and death.

https://sadalskij.livejournal.com/1282626.html


See, if you don't understand history, if you are not aware of details, that's how you arrive to the wrong conclusions.
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Old 07-11-2023, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,985 posts, read 9,722,959 times
Reputation: 23303
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Strongly doubt that.
Ukraine has no love for Russia. During WW2, the liberated Ukrainians volunteered to fight with the Germans against "Uncle Joe Stalin."
Luhansk, Donetsk, and Crimea beg to differ.

It's western Ukraine that has no love for Russia, not eastern Ukraine.

Everything is not so black and white in the real world.
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