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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 209 40.04%
No 263 50.38%
Unsure 50 9.58%
Voters: 522. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-17-2023, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
856 posts, read 342,433 times
Reputation: 1456

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If Russia doesn't want to be weakened it shouldn't have started a war it couldn't win. Every decision in the road to this outcome was something Russia chose to do. The west isn't responsible for this war, Russia's paranoia and imperial delusions are. If Russia behaved like a normal country none of this would have happened. You don't see Germany or Poland invading their neighbors anymore, but they are still respected and prosperous countries. But Russia wanted to act as if they are still a superpower, they discovered the hard way that they aren't.
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Old 05-17-2023, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Port Charlotte FL
5,016 posts, read 2,786,794 times
Reputation: 7810
Denys update...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk5PY-jBStw
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Old 05-17-2023, 07:23 PM
 
1,410 posts, read 504,038 times
Reputation: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmouse View Post
No one wants Russia’s 2013 borders changed or dismantled.

I mean even the hawk types don’t want to risk the Chechens ending up with possession of the nukes.

It’s just more paranoia in the name of justifying Russia’s imperalist expansion plans.

The concept has been in existence for decades and you've had notable proponents for it with the Carter administration's national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, discussing a 'loosely confederated' Russia in an article titled 'A Geostrategy for Eurasia'. Dick Cheney was a fervent anti-Russian dissenter who called not just for the Soviet Union's collapse but the deconstruction of Russia into micro-states in order to prevent it from ever becoming a global power again. The Helsinki Commission (created and overseen by Congress with members of Congress and from various federal departments presiding over it) even had a discussion about it titled 'Decolonising Russia'.

Let's not pretend that the United States doesn't have 'questionable' objectives in mind for Russia that go well beyond this present conflict and have been ongoing for decades.

Russia's objectives here have nothing to do with imperialism. If they did then they wouldn't have wasted eight years on frivolous negotiations with the West over the situation in the Donbass and the grievances the Russian speaking population there had over civil liberties and autonomy with the Ukrainian government.
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Old 05-17-2023, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Tacoma WA, USA
5,714 posts, read 5,035,029 times
Reputation: 4969
No matter your stance on the war, it all comes back to the Budapest Memorandum signed by the US, UK, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan back in 1994. Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakstan agreed to relinquish control of soviet nuclear missiles to Russia in return for security guarantee of their territorial integrity.

1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.

2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory.

3. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by the signatory of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against the signatory.

6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Russia is actively breaking points 1, 2, 3 and is threatening to break point 5. I suppose from a Russian perspective they thought the EU was also breaking the 3rd point in 2014, but Russia was breaking that point at the same time trying to coerce Ukraine into the Eurasian economic Union. In 2014 the signatories did end up following point 6 and came up with the Minsk agreement, however it did not resolve Ukraine’s territorial integrity as it didn’t even bother to resolve the Crimea issue. In any case no where in the memorandum does it give the right to any of the signatories to wage war or “special military operations” if any of the other parties break any of the points. Nor does breaking any of the points nullifies the memorandum as Ukraine still is not armed with nuclear weapons.

If Russia wants keep control of the territory they have annexed so far such as Crimea, then the memorandum has to be reversed and nuclear weapons need to be returned to Ukraine, I don’t think Russia is ready for that kind of trade, so Russia in the end will have to return that territory as per the memorandum that they signed. Of course the US, UK and Ukraine will ultimately have to come up with some sort of incentive for Russia to follow through if they want to avoid all out war. These incentives would probably be making Ukraine into a neutral country, insuring that no foreign military to be hosted in the country and insuring the rights of Russian speakers. But this conflict has been going on for so long now and so many lives lost that I don’t think either party is ready to make any real concessions, especially after the failure of the Minsk agreement, Russia will definitely be holding on to Crimea until it’s pried out of their hands. I have a hard time seeing a peaceful negotiated treaty anytime soon.
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Old 05-17-2023, 07:43 PM
bu2
 
24,314 posts, read 15,150,265 times
Reputation: 13179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryvete View Post
The concept has been in existence for decades and you've had notable proponents for it with the Carter administration's national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, discussing a 'loosely confederated' Russia in an article titled 'A Geostrategy for Eurasia'. Dick Cheney was a fervent anti-Russian dissenter who called not just for the Soviet Union's collapse but the deconstruction of Russia into micro-states in order to prevent it from ever becoming a global power again. The Helsinki Commission (created and overseen by Congress with members of Congress and from various federal departments presiding over it) even had a discussion about it titled 'Decolonising Russia'.

Let's not pretend that the United States doesn't have 'questionable' objectives in mind for Russia that go well beyond this present conflict and have been ongoing for decades.

Russia's objectives here have nothing to do with imperialism. If they did then they wouldn't have wasted eight years on frivolous negotiations with the West over the situation in the Donbass and the grievances the Russian speaking population there had over civil liberties and autonomy with the Ukrainian government.
Paranoid delusions fitting of Vladimir himself.

Das vidanya.
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Old 05-17-2023, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
7,817 posts, read 2,769,294 times
Reputation: 3388
ISW Update 5/17/23

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nt-may-17-2023

Quote:
May 17, 2023 - Press ISW

Russian and Ukrainian officials acknowledged continued limited Ukrainian counterattacks near Bakhmut on May 17. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated that Ukrainian forces are advancing in unspecified areas on Bakhmut’s flanks. Ukrainian Eastern Group of Forces Spokesperson Colonel Serhiy Cherevaty stated that Ukrainian forces advanced up to 500 meters in the Bakhmut direction in the past day and continue to attack Russian flanks. The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) claimed that Russian Airborne Forces (VDV) made marginal advances but acknowledged continued Ukrainian counterattacks against Bakhmut’s flanks near Bohdanivka (5km northwest of Bakhmut) and Ivanivske (6km west of Bakhmut). Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin denied the MoD’s claim of territorial gains, however, and criticized the MoD for falsely portraying a retreat as capturing new positions. One prominent milblogger complained that Russian forces must now react to Ukrainian actions, implying that Russian forces are losing the initiative in the Bakhmut area despite the limited nature of Ukrainian counterattacks in the area.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/st...31997840621571

Quote:
Responding to today's Russian MoD's announcement of VDV taking "more favourable positions" in Bakhmut area, Prigozhin said that this maneuver should be called something different.
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Old 05-17-2023, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,552 posts, read 8,343,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
Wagner doesn’t only get paid with money, they also get a cut of assets they secure or take, like oil/gas wells in Syria, mineral mines or rights in Africa, etc.

Billions in revenue for the Wagner web of companies.
That is fine for Mr. Wagner, I wonder what kind of profit sharing does one of his employees, if he makes it across a street in Bakhmut, get?
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Old 05-17-2023, 08:44 PM
 
19,276 posts, read 27,986,171 times
Reputation: 20361
The most powerful night attack of the Russian Aerospace Forces

Which hasn't ended yet.

It all started in the evening, when the Russian Aerospace Forces literally hit the south of Ukraine, where one of the most important logistics centers is located near the Odessa region, which receives NATO cargo from Romania.

More than ten arrivals were noted at the alleged places of storage and reloading of BC, as well as accumulations of equipment transferred to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Then there was a blow to the Nikolaev region and along the line of contact, where front-line aviation struck at the enemy’s near rear (from Kharkov to Kherson), hitting the identified places of accumulation of his reserves. As a result, numerous arrivals were also noted.

And, finally, in the morning (at about 4.00 Moscow time) strikes with "Caliber" (and possibly "Daggers") went from Poltava to Ternopil. Again there was a blow to the Khmelnytsky region, the center of Ukraine, and right now work is underway on Kyiv (there are already arrivals). Probably, ours today will try to inflict another defeat on the Kyiv air defense region.

It is possible that this is not all. But even if nothing else happens, this is perhaps the most massive (in terms of scale) attack by the Russian Aerospace Forces, except for the first days of the NWO.


https://t.me/yurasumy/8745
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Old 05-17-2023, 08:46 PM
 
19,276 posts, read 27,986,171 times
Reputation: 20361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
That is fine for Mr. Wagner, I wonder what kind of profit sharing does one of his employees, if he makes it across a street in Bakhmut, get?



Pay is starting at R240 000 a month plus bonuses based on performance. You can make $100 000 for a Leopard.



Should you be interested, here's link:


https://t.me/wagnernew/7758
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Old 05-17-2023, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,552 posts, read 8,343,524 times
Reputation: 9336
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Pay is starting at R240 000 a month plus bonuses based on performance. You can make $100 000 for a Leopard.



Should you be interested, here's link:


https://t.me/wagnernew/7758
So no percentage, just a flat rate
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