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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 198 39.52%
No 254 50.70%
Unsure 49 9.78%
Voters: 501. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-16-2023, 01:45 PM
 
8,972 posts, read 11,849,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
There are a few things which could galvanize the Russian people and send what is left of their young men scrambling to get into the army. A NATO missile hitting Moscow would be one. That would be on par with the appearance of a US bomber overhead.


Another one is the appearance of a German tank anywhere in Russia. It wouldn't matter much who is driving it and what their intentions are; it's a German tank and Russians could be expected to react badly, just as the Germans would if a Russian tank appeared in Germany.
I think Germany is stalling. Germany is hoping this war will be settled before they have to provide heavy materiel that screams "GERMANY!"
There would not be German tanks anywhere in Russia. The weapons would be used to drive Russian invaders out of Ukraine. Crimea and other illegally annexed Ukrainian lands are not part of Russia.

This attitude of appeasing Putin is what led to the invasion.

After the invasion of Crimea, Putin became emboldened because the free world did nothing. Now is the time to correct that mistake. Give Ukraine what is needed to drive the Russians out of all the stolen lands for good.

Last edited by davidt1; 01-16-2023 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 01-16-2023, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Port Charlotte FL
4,963 posts, read 2,742,254 times
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tanks tanks tanks, send in the damn tanks..at the end of this video the foreign minister of Lithuania says that several European countries have German tanks ready to send to Ukraine but are waiting on a green light from Berlin..why does Germany have control over what other countries do with their tanks?..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOl4h0fRXtg
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Old 01-16-2023, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,453 posts, read 8,255,511 times
Reputation: 9254
Quote:
Originally Posted by double6's View Post
tanks tanks tanks, send in the damn tanks..at the end of this video the foreign minister of Lithuania says that several European countries have German tanks ready to send to Ukraine but are waiting on a green light from Berlin..why does Germany have control over what other countries do with their tanks?..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOl4h0fRXtg
All nations put restrictions on what customer nations can do with the weapons sold to them. Sometimes the consumer buys less capable systems to have more permissive end user terms
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Old 01-16-2023, 02:43 PM
 
21,427 posts, read 7,506,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
...
After the invasion of Crimea, Putin became emboldened because the free world did nothing. Now is the time to correct that mistake. Give Ukraine what is needed to drive the Russians out of all the stolen lands for good.
Agreed.

I don't think NATO and the European Union had contemplated the need to defend Ukraine before 2014, but Putin's successful seizure of Crimea did teach Russia the wrong lesson. They were emboldened to take more and more. This time it's Ukraine, the next time maybe Estonia.

The Russian people like that, they like to know their country is becoming 'larger'. They don't give a damn about the Ukrainian people, they don't care that the Ukrainian people might or might not have been under the control of "NAZIs". That was an excuse, not the reason to attack and kill their neighbors.
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Old 01-16-2023, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,958 posts, read 25,078,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
There would not be German tanks anywhere in Russia. The weapons would be used to drive Russian invaders out of Ukraine. Crimea and other illegally annexed Ukrainian lands are not part of Russia.

This attitude of appeasing Putin is what led to the invasion.

After the invasion of Crimea, Putin became emboldened because the free world did nothing. Now is the time to correct that mistake. Give Ukraine what is needed to drive the Russians out of all the stolen lands for good.

So why didn't Obama do anything to stop Putler back in 2014 when this all started??? He literally told Putin that he would have more leverage after the election, presumably so he could carry out his evil plan to invade Ukraine.
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Old 01-16-2023, 02:45 PM
 
21,427 posts, read 7,506,386 times
Reputation: 13233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
All nations put restrictions on what customer nations can do with the weapons sold to them. Sometimes the consumer buys less capable systems to have more permissive end user terms
Not sure but I think that was part of the reason Poland chose to buy Korean tanks recently. They like the terms.
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Old 01-16-2023, 05:46 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,706 posts, read 17,477,129 times
Reputation: 37521
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidt1 View Post
There would not be German tanks anywhere in Russia. The weapons would be used to drive Russian invaders out of Ukraine. Crimea and other illegally annexed Ukrainian lands are not part of Russia.

This attitude of appeasing Putin is what led to the invasion.

After the invasion of Crimea, Putin became emboldened because the free world did nothing. Now is the time to correct that mistake. Give Ukraine what is needed to drive the Russians out of all the stolen lands for good.
I hear ya.
The Germans?.......... They're not so sure. OK, the Germans are weenies, let's face it. If it were me, I'd hand over the tanks with a handshake agreement that tanks would not cross into Russia. But when dealing with Germany, well, we all see what happens. They got in bed with Russia, scoffed at the various warnings and now will pay the price.


Meanwhile, Switzerland has blocked Germany from sending anti-aircraft ammunition in spite of the fact Swiss ammunition is used world wide in areas of conflict. Weenies, also?.... You bet. The Swiss and the Germans act like a bunch of Green Peace lawyers. They have found themselves in a position to say "No", so that's what they do.
Can you imagine selling ammunition to someone and then feeling entitled to dictate its use? That takes a special kind of weenie.
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Old 01-17-2023, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Durham NC
5,253 posts, read 3,837,452 times
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It looks like the sanctions are working.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-door-britain/
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Old 01-17-2023, 07:27 AM
 
3,573 posts, read 1,191,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancers View Post
It looks like the sanctions are working.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-door-britain/
Maybe it is exactly as it was hoped for...
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Old 01-17-2023, 08:39 AM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,706 posts, read 17,477,129 times
Reputation: 37521
Putin is Hammered by Fate:
Mild weather in Europe have kept gas prices down. Gas purchases from Russia are already down because of action taken by Europe, and now Russia must settle for a lower price, too. Forecasts of starving, freezing Europeans have not panned out.
Urals crude, the oil Russia sells, is listed at $50, although no one is paying that. India and China are each forcing Russia to sell oil at a steep discount. Production cost is around $42, and it is likely Russia is forced to sell for less than that. The alternative is to shut down the well - a very expensive procedure if it is to ever start up again.
Worse yet, the EU ban on Russian oil has not ever begun yet!...

In a twist of irony, the weather in Siberia is abnormally cold this year. It is so cold that Chinese tires, which replaced western tires, simply burst from the cold.
Covid has exploded in China. That affects Russia because it was China who was supposed to provide back door support for Russia.


Things are not going well for Putin.
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