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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 201 39.64%
No 257 50.69%
Unsure 49 9.66%
Voters: 507. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-13-2023, 03:13 AM
 
51,743 posts, read 26,064,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Why not head on over there cowboy? Ukraine is always accepting mercenaries, and you can make good money fighting for Ukraine. Just leave the rest of us peace loving folks out of it.


Putin's "master plan" is likely not very great or impressive. But a plan is a plan, and I see no reason to play along with it. If it is a trap that he wants us to fall into, I see absolutely no good reason to go wondering into it. He's quite unpredictable and likely crazy, and loaded with nukes that could fall into the hands of all sorts of radical extremist groups. It's not Putler I'm worried about. It's what comes after him. Occupying Russia would be Afghanistan X 10. And now the Taliban is back in control of Afghanistan... So do the math.


Perhaps you should listen to what mercenary fighters working to help Ukraine have to say about this fight. If you are in fact a "listener", which I highly doubt.
Are you sure you understand what a "trap" is?

Tricking the U.S. into coming over and bombing the hell out of you sounds more like a death wish than a trap.

As to leaving the peace loving folks out of it, Ukrainians wish that was possible.
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Old 01-13-2023, 03:17 AM
 
51,743 posts, read 26,064,301 times
Reputation: 38065
"Russia's Ministry of Defense spokesman Igor Konashenkov says Russia has already destroyed 4 Bradley Fighting Vehicles in Ukraine. Which is indeed remarkable in that none have been delivered yet."

https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/st...t-and-Avdiivka

Ukrainians are due to get 46 Bradleys.
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Old 01-13-2023, 03:21 AM
 
51,743 posts, read 26,064,301 times
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In the buildup to WWII, many peace loving folks were fine with Hitler doing whatever he wanted.

Sadly, they believed he could be appeased by giving him what he wanted as long as it was someone else's country.
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Old 01-13-2023, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
30,064 posts, read 25,184,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Are you sure you understand what a "trap" is?

Tricking the U.S. into coming over and bombing the hell out of you sounds more like a death wish than a trap.

As to leaving the peace loving folks out of it, Ukrainians wish that was possible.

Building bombs (and many other things military related) is not the same as building Big Macs. And that's the crux of the problem for the west. These things have to be manufactured in sufficient quantities, and Russia is huge in land mass. Putin would like to see the west's stockpiles completely drained. You all bashed Trump relentlessly for trying to help America by bringing manufacturing back home where it belongs. Heaven forbid we be prepared for WW3...


Has Germany bothered to turn their steel mills back on yet??? You don't win wars by idling your industries. To Germany's credit, they were smart enough to maintain a reasonably well intact heavy manufacturing base. But to lead a land invasion into Russia, it will take more of what Germany and the USA still has intact. Certainly they/we can do it, but it involves ramping up, not scaling down and idling steel mills. And all of this stuff requires abundant (hopefully cheap) energy.
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Old 01-13-2023, 04:03 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,985 posts, read 9,722,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
In the buildup to WWII, many peace loving folks were fine with Hitler doing whatever he wanted.

Sadly, they believed he could be appeased by giving him what he wanted as long as it was someone else's country.
Comparing Nazi Germany who conquered a large portion of Europe, to Putin's modern Russia who can't even conquer one country where the far eastern portion speaks Russian, makes me think you slept during history class.

Even the Japanese empire, who actually defeated Russia at one point, would laugh at anyone comparing Nazi Germany to modern Russia.
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Old 01-13-2023, 04:24 AM
 
51,743 posts, read 26,064,301 times
Reputation: 38065
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Building bombs (and many other things military related) is not the same as building Big Macs. And that's the crux of the problem for the west. These things have to be manufactured in sufficient quantities, and Russia is huge in land mass. Putin would like to see the west's stockpiles completely drained. You all bashed Trump relentlessly for trying to help America by bringing manufacturing back home where it belongs. Heaven forbid we be prepared for WW3...


Has Germany bothered to turn their steel mills back on yet??? You don't win wars by idling your industries. To Germany's credit, they were smart enough to maintain a reasonably well intact heavy manufacturing base. But to lead a land invasion into Russia, it will take more of what Germany and the USA still has intact. Certainly they/we can do it, but it involves ramping up, not scaling down and idling steel mills. And all of this stuff requires abundant (hopefully cheap) energy.
Are you arguing that the U.S., Germany, etc. do not have the military capability to manufacture sufficient weapons because (a) Russia is a "huge land mass," and Trump was unable to bring manufacturing home?

Is that correct?

Well, you are in for some good news.

Google "manufacturing returning to US," and read some of the articles such as: https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/econo...obs/index.html

While Trump wasn't able to accomplish much other than a tariff war with China, between recent supply chain issues, and the Biden administration's support for bringing home manufacturing of computer chips and so forth, things are looking up in that department.

And if you think the only thing weapons of war need are steel mills running at full blast, then you are in for some more good news when you start reading about computer chips.

In any case, there is good reason to believe that building up a manufacturing base to defeat Russia will not be required. There are plenty of weapons around to do the job, more coming off the line all the time.

Putin is playing a fool's game here.
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Old 01-13-2023, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
30,064 posts, read 25,184,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Are you arguing that the U.S., Germany, etc. do not have the military capability to manufacture sufficient weapons because (a) Russia is a "huge land mass," and Trump was unable to bring manufacturing home?

Is that correct?

Well, you are in for some good news.

Google "manufacturing returning to US," and read some of the articles such as: https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/econo...obs/index.html

While Trump wasn't able to accomplish much other than a tariff war with China, between recent supply chain issues, and the Biden administration's support for bringing home manufacturing of computer chips and so forth, things are looking up in that department.

And if you think the only thing weapons of war need are steel mills running at full blast, then you are in for some more good news when you start reading about computer chips.

In any case, there is good reason to believe that building up a manufacturing base to defeat Russia will not be required. There are plenty of weapons around to do the job, more coming off the line all the time.

Putin is playing a fool's game here.

It's good if corporations are really taking this issue seriously. Manufacturers have to hire and train a whole hell of a lot of young people. The blue collar trades are grey and retiring. Talk about waiting till the last minute...
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Old 01-13-2023, 06:11 AM
 
2,389 posts, read 1,122,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
It's good if corporations are really taking this issue seriously. Manufacturers have to hire and train a whole hell of a lot of young people. The blue collar trades are grey and retiring. Talk about waiting till the last minute...
And Russia is in a better position in terms of manufacturing?

Last edited by GTB365; 01-13-2023 at 06:26 AM..
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Old 01-13-2023, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Port Charlotte FL
4,999 posts, read 2,770,972 times
Reputation: 7793
Germanies Scholtz is dragging his feet on giving Poland the green light for them to give Leopard tanks to Ukraine..he's waiting on Biden to give him the green light..wth?..escalation be damned..give Ukraine the tools they need to outright defeat Russia..
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Old 01-13-2023, 09:49 AM
 
480 posts, read 225,783 times
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Quite an escalation if this happens....

Poland and Great Britain may open the floodgates to heavier armor and tanks.

Poland discussing sending Leopard II heavy tanks and Britain sending in Challenger II tanks.

This may entice Spain and Netherlands to send their Leopards.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=3341693d2f84

Also, Joe Biden is contemplating sending surplus M-2 Bradley's...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=15189a592d6a
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