Several states are legislating to discriminate (parade, Kennedy, Indiana, myth)
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The market does deal with it though, and always does it better, faster and more fairly than if government deals with it. Consumers making millions, even billions of individual decisions every day have a better responsiveness to bad business than government could ever hope to.
You can insult me all you want, but I still don't think because a small minority uses their freedom in bad ways means freedom itself should be taken away.
Let a business owner remain free to refuse service to gay people, and what stops anyone from organizing a boycott and negative publicity campaign against that business owner's actions? In the extended stakeholder model, government removal of freedom is not required for the marketplace to self-correct.
And the reason you'll never see a libertarian government is that humans are not, as a species, sufficiently evolved to accept and be capable of running their own lives with only minimal government, and since every government ends up reversing the normal evolution by giving special protection to those that evolution would normally kill off, our species actually devolves and gets further away from actualizing as a species. Pretty much everything you type is evidence of that.
This just reeks of white, straight , male privilege. What would the market have done when my grandfather returning from WWII couldn't get served at lunch counters in the South? Not a damn thing, because society thought it perfectly ok to refuse service to someone based on skin color even one in uniform. If the market was so responsive why was Civil Rights Act necessary? It's because discrimination like this was still prevalent and not ending anytime soon.
This fact is behind all the high minded language, libertarians are either so blinded by privilege in not having to worry about facing discrimination. That they can afford to have an "it'll just take care of itself" attitude or they're just bigots looking to justify discrimination against groups they don't like.
Last edited by Spartanguy; 02-26-2014 at 01:08 PM..
This just reeks of white, straight , male privilege. What would the market have done when my grandfather returning from WWII couldn't get served at lunch counters in the South? Not a damn thing, because society thought it perfectly ok to refuse service to someone based on skin color even one in uniform. If the market was so responsive why was Civil Rights Act necessary? It's because discrimination like this was still prevalent and not ending anytime soon.
This fact behind all the high minded language libertarians are either so blinded by privilege in not having to worry about facing discrimination. That they afford to have "it'll just take care of itself" attitude or they're just bigots looking to justify discrimination against groups they don't like.
Hammer hits nail on the head.. White males are all for the market because they know it means someone else will be left by the side of the road by a tow truck, or be denied a lunch or a chance to use a restroom. Listen to them howl when they think that they are the victims like when their religious rights are being squeezed. They are seriously trying to make the case that we need to allow discrimination against gays so they, themselves, are not discriminated against. Their freedoms are only preserved when the freedoms of others are taken away.
The flip side, should a homosexual-owned business (or any other business) be forced to participate in an action or event that they don't approve of? For example, should a homo-owned catering business be forced to serve food and provide services at a far-right religious organization's gathering that, say, was focused on addressing the "sin" of homosexuality? Should a black-owned business be forced to cater a KKK meeting? To the best of my knowledge, we're not talking about McDonalds refusing service to a homosexual couple, we're dealing with businesses that specifically have to "participate" in the ceremony or event, one which they may not approve of or find distasteful. The example I use...a male stripper that performs for bachlorete parties-should they be required to perform for homo males? How about a vegan catering business...should they be forced to serve hamburgers at a cattleman's convention?
This bill has very little to do with "gay rights" crap. It has everything to do with freedom to choose who you associate with.
Clueless, as usual.
A vegan catering business will be more than happy to cater a Cattleman's convention, as long as they choose from her vegan menu. It's a vegan business. She can cater whatever she wants, as long as they pick from the menu that's already on offer. Which is vegan.
Why should clergy be forced to participate in a ceremony which by their faith is an abomination? Next they will be saying that it is unconstitutional to say in church services that homosexuality is anathema. Are we ALL supposed to be politically correct? Please DON'T suppose to take the moral high ground and say it's HATE to NOT give up your religious beliefs in favor of what's currently in vogue. And please DON't compare this to African-American civil rights.
Why should clergy be forced to participate in a ceremony which by their faith is an abomination? Next they will be saying that it is unconstitutional to say in church services that homosexuality is anathema. Are we ALL supposed to be politically correct? Please DON'T suppose to take the moral high ground and say it's HATE to NOT give up your religious beliefs in favor of what's currently in vogue. And please DON't compare this to African-American civil rights.
This is not about clergy, or churches. It is about businesses being able to turn away customers that are gay.
No church or clergy member in this country has ever been forced to perform a marriage ceremony that they choose not to.
Any person that doesn't want to serve women shouldn't have to.
Any person that doesn't want to serve blacks shouldn't have to.
What century are we in?
We are in a century where one very small but extremely vocal minority used political connections and sued and fought in appeal after appeal to have a License ruled to be a "Right".
If a Marriage License is a right, the certainly a Business License must be a right. And Rights can not be mutually exlcusive, one can not have their rights "picked and chosen" for them.
Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Association, Freedom of Speech did not all the sudden disappear because another Right was born.
If i wear my "Marriage = 1 Man + 1 Woman" hat and t-shirt to a pro guay-marriage establishment, i know there is a very small amount of christians who do believe that way. it wouldnt upset me to be asked to leave. my beliefs are very important to me, but they dont supercede anyone else's rights, i dont see why its so hard that understanding can't be returned.
We are in a century where one very small but extremely vocal minority used political connections and sued and fought in appeal after appeal to have a License ruled to be a "Right".
If a Marriage License is a right, the certainly a Business License must be a right. And Rights can not be mutually exlcusive, one can not have their rights "picked and chosen" for them.
Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Association, Freedom of Speech did not all the sudden disappear because another Right was born.
If i wear my "Marriage = 1 Man + 1 Woman" hat and t-shirt to a pro guay-marriage establishment, i know there is a very small amount of christians who do believe that way. it wouldnt upset me to be asked to leave. my beliefs are very important to me, but they dont supercede anyone else's rights, i dont see why its so hard that understanding can't be returned.
Just out of curiousity, why do you do you keep using the Spanish term for "cool?"
Do you think gay marriage is cool?
Last edited by weltschmerz; 02-26-2014 at 02:49 PM..
Hammer hits nail on the head.. White males are all for the market because they know it means someone else will be left by the side of the road by a tow truck, or be denied a lunch or a chance to use a restroom. Listen to them howl when they think that they are the victims like when their religious rights are being squeezed. They are seriously trying to make the case that we need to allow discrimination against gays so they, themselves, are not discriminated against. Their freedoms are only preserved when the freedoms of others are taken away.
Only white males defend religious rights? Men and women of all races and religions will defend their religious rights.
Impossible to know, since civil and religious customs of that time only permitted unions between a man and a woman and there was no reason for gender-neutral proclamations re marriage.
On the other hand, Jesus was crystal clear about remarrying after divorce:
"Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
Begs the question, are bible-thumping wedding retailers denying service to divorced persons who are remarrying? If not seems a tad hypocritical.
My dad won't remarry people who have already been divorced for unscriptural reasons. In fact most Church of Christ preachers won't marry someone who has already been divorced based on the scripture you just used. I can' t speak for any other Christian religion...but they should all be following the rule if you ask me instead of picking and choosing which laws to obey.
Apparently, Ohio lawmakers have had a good hard look at Arizona and decided that they want no part of a similar debacle.
Quote:
COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - State lawmakers in Ohio withdrew legislation Wednesday that mirrors an Arizona bill that’s come under fire for protecting those who assert their religious beliefs in refusing service to gays.
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