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You are joking right? you mean that you can shot for asking why the hell are you being followed? In you mind that is picking a fight? You do realize that zimmerman really had no authority to ask him anything. Trayvon would have been in his rights to tell zimmerman to go screw himself if he wanted to.
I'm not saying someone can be shot for asking why are you following me. But, that isn't what happened anyway.
This is what happened. Trayvon was walking through the neighborhood in which he was living at the time, Zimmerman didn't recognize him and was concerned that he might be there to steal something, so Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon saw Zimmerman following him and at some point asked Zimmerman why he was following him, Zimmerman then asked Trayvon what he was doing there, they then repeated the questions to each other instead of answering each other, and at some point Trayvon ended up punching Zimmerman in the face, knocking him down, and jumping on top of him, at which time Zimmerman shot Trayvon.
Can you agree with me, that that is what happened?
In my mind, there are really just two issues in this case.
1) Profiling. Whether it be because of race, or because he was wearing a hoodie, or whatever else. Trayvon seemed suspicious to Zimmerman because of his appearance.
Why did Zimmerman feel that Martin's appearance made him suspicious? Was his suspicion justified? And if so, what can we do to prevent good people from getting profiled?
2) Does someone have the right to follow someone who they believe looks suspicious?
Is profiling illegal? Why is this an issue in the case? I understand the prosecution listed "profiling" as some sort of reason to charge Zimmerman in the 2nd degree but I still don't get it.
In my mind, there are really just two issues in this case.
1) Profiling. Whether it be because of race, or because he was wearing a hoodie, or whatever else. Trayvon seemed suspicious to Zimmerman because of his appearance.
Why did Zimmerman feel that Martin's appearance made him suspicious? Was his suspicion justified? And if so, what can we do to prevent good people from getting profiled?
Fair question, but does it really matter? What really matters is who started the physical altercation (threw the first punch). But getting back to your question, Martin fit the description of suspects involved in several burglaries in the neighborhood, and wasn't recognized as a resident there. Simple statistics. It seems pretty reasonable for a NW volunteer to watch him and report to the PD. Given the timeframe of Zimmerman's 911 call and Martins proximity to his house, it's pretty obvious Zimmerman didn't just run down Martin, grab him and start the fight. He claims he lost M, and was walking back to his truck when M approached him. Could be. Or he could have kept walking around the area, and come across M as he rounded a corner perhaps. We don't know at this point.
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2) Does someone have the right to follow someone who they believe looks suspicious?
IMO, Zimmerman had as much "right" to be there as Martin did. Especially if he was following at a distance, observing and reporting to the police. It would be interesting to see information from a legal expert to know at what point "following" is illegal. And also if Zimmerman was "following" closely enough that a reasonable person would be in fear for their life. But if so, Martin could simply have walked into his house and avoided a confrontation.
It will be interesting to see more evidence. I don't claim to know enough to say if Z is guilty or not. Unlike many psychics on here.
I don't think you are getting what defenders of Trayvon are trying to write..
The reason why he was charged with 2nd degree murder was because the prosecution believes that there was disregard for Human life. It seems that it is important for the court to know that Trayvon was being followed. Regardless of who threw the first punch, Zimmerman could have avoided the situation. One of the witnesses stated that he saw Trayvon shadow being chased by Zimmerman. If the cries for help are Trayvon there is a chance that the manslaughter charge is justified.
Not at all. I already wrote that there were 47 pages of 911 calls he made to the police on the Sanford site, which are no longer available. They were not "hearsay." The time he called 911 while chasing a man in his car is on record. When he followed a person out of a store for shoplifting and pursued him until the cops got there is not hearsay either. There are others. He has delusions about his authority. The fact is, he has none! It is 5 in the morning, so I'm not going to search for them, but one report said he was involved in a road rage incident. Domestic abuse isn't hearsay either. I will agree with you that it was several years ago.
Over what period of time did he make those calls, I've heard 7-10 years, that would be approximately 5-7 calls a year, I can easily match his number of calls... I've also chased someone down who attempted to break into my cars, twice...I can tell you that I don't have delusions about my authority and I am not an aggressive person, far from it. Also, did he call the non-emergency number or 911, there is a difference. So, no, I don't agree that this speaks to aggressiveness or violent behavior...The hearsay I was referring to was the neighbors talking about his aggressive behavior, ex co-workers, etc. Unless they are called to testify under oath, I take their comments with a grain of salt...
As for the DV incident, both he and his ex were issued Permanent Injunctions against each other, the court does not hand those out just based on someone's word, it sounded like it was an immature relationship where they both crossed the line and got a little physical.
I've looked up his traffic citations, while there isn't any specific detail, both were dismissed because the officer failed to appear, one was a registration citation 320.0605, one was for unlawful speed in a business or residence district 316.189 (2)(a). I would think that if within one of those citations there was an incident of "Road Rage" the officer would have cited him for "Aggressive Driving" 316.1923 which was not listed in his record and at the very least shown up to court.
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Originally Posted by justNancy
I don't know what you're talking about here, but I'm glad you agree with me! Do you live in Florida? What did I say that was incorrect regarding Gov Scott and drug testing? He was only elected in Nov 2010. So no law he passed could have been in effect for a long time.
Edit: Do you mean the court injunction? That was about 4 or 5 months ago. I don't know what that has to do with my comment. I was only making a point about the laws being so unbalanced. Florida has a lot of crazy laws.
Yes, I live in Florida and yes that's what I meant, a judge put the kibosh on the drug testing, pretty much right after it was enacted...so, there hasn't been any drug testing since (approx. Oct. 2011). It really turned out to be a waste of taxpayers money because only 2% failed the test...and I agree Florida is just so very "special"...
I could really care less what others say. The dispatcher never told him not to follow. The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that."
Ugh!! "We don't need you to do that" is a SUGGESTION that you don't do anything
Look, if Trayvon felt safe enough to ask the guy why he was following him, it says a lot about the mental state of Trayvon at the time.
Actually, if he did not question someone following him I would wonder as well
For instance, if I was a woman walking home at night, and some guy was following me, and I was scared. I would not turn around and ask the guy why he was following me. I would most likely look for safety. And Trayvon was very close to home when this happened.
1. Trayvon was NOT a woman 2. Apparently Trayvon was not afraid of zimmerman 3. The average man once he sizes up an individual determines wheter the flight or flee kicks in 4. Who in the hell would bring this nutcase to their home since he was going to follow him regardless wherever he went
The reality is, the fact that Trayvon was behaving like he was, showed that he wasn't scared of Zimmerman at all. And the fact that he refused to answer Zimmermans question, showed that he was angry/annoyed at Zimmerman for following him. Which is a pretty normal reaction to someone following you.
Was zimmerman in any position of authority? So therefore Trayvon did not have to answer any of his question. BTW, how do you know that he did'nt? And do you know what was actually said? Is it possible that zimmerman infused a racial or demeaning language in his questioning? Hell, you don't even know if zimmerman had been drinking that night thanks to the police dept.
The problem is that, not only did the verbal confrontation start because of Trayvon, most likely the physical confrontation also started because of Trayvon. Being that Trayvon had been the only one to throw a punch, and Trayvon had been on top of Zimmerman when he was shot.
Sure eventhough Trayvon was suppose to be on top and zimmermna supposely shot him from below why was.nt there any blood on zimmerman's shirt? I guess gravity works for him as well
So, while I don't think Trayvon deserved to die, its hard for me to have much sympathy for him, being that he directly began the conflict on multiple levels.
Good, because I won't have much sympathy for zimmerman either once he is on jail and finds out how tough he really is
People talk about how Zimmerman made stupid decisions, and they are probably right. But Trayvon made plenty of stupid decisions as well, and in my mind, his decisions were even worse.
Nice, I will remember that whenever I'm following you or one of your loved ones and they question me as to why I'm following them
I don't think you are getting what defenders of Trayvon are trying to write..
The reason why he was charged with 2nd degree murder was because the prosecution believes that there was disregard for Human life. It seems that it is important for the court to know that Trayvon was being followed. Regardless of who threw the first punch, Zimmerman could have avoided the situation. One of the witnesses stated that he saw Trayvon shadow being chased by Zimmerman. If the cries for help are Trayvon there is a chance that the manslaughter charge is justified.
I would think that if the cries for help are proven to be from Martin that murder charges (not manslaughter) would be justified.
The victim, Zimmerman, was able to defend himself.
The victim is the one who is dead. That's not GZ.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
I could really care less what others say. The dispatcher never told him not to follow. The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that."
Look, if Trayvon felt safe enough to ask the guy why he was following him, it says a lot about the mental state of Trayvon at the time.
For instance, if I was a woman walking home at night, and some guy was following me, and I was scared. I would not turn around and ask the guy why he was following me. I would most likely look for safety. And Trayvon was very close to home when this happened.
The reality is, the fact that Trayvon was behaving like he was, showed that he wasn't scared of Zimmerman at all. And the fact that he refused to answer Zimmermans question, showed that he was angry/annoyed at Zimmerman for following him. Which is a pretty normal reaction to someone following you.
The problem is that, not only did the verbal confrontation start because of Trayvon, most likely the physical confrontation also started because of Trayvon. Being that Trayvon had been the only one to throw a punch, and Trayvon had been on top of Zimmerman when he was shot.
So, while I don't think Trayvon deserved to die, its hard for me to have much sympathy for him, being that he directly began the conflict on multiple levels.
People talk about how Zimmerman made stupid decisions, and they are probably right. But Trayvon made plenty of stupid decisions as well, and in my mind, his decisions were even worse.
Please tell me about your medical education, pyschiatric residency, professional certifications in psychiatry, etc.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Look, you look can look at backgrounds all you want. But when we look at the facts, we can see that Zimmerman was just following Martin(whether or not that was a good idea or not is irrelevant). It was Martin who spoke the first words to Zimmerman. It was Martin who punched Zimmerman. That isn't me making stuff up, those are all the facts that we have available. Everything else that happened before and after doesn't really matter.
If Martin, who was almost home, and could have just ran to his door if he was scared, had the gumption to turn around and forcefully start asking Zimmerman why he is following him, he simply wasn't scared. He could have easily just went home. And if he was actually fearful of his life, he could have knocked on peoples doors in the neighborhood as he walked home, it was only 7 PM. But no, the evidence basically shows he was not scared at all. He did not behave anything like someone who was scared. He behaved like someone who was angry. And was looking to start something with Zimmerman, and that is what happened.
And while it is perfectly understandable for someone to be angry that someone is following him at night. It doesn't give him the right to attack Zimmerman. And if he attacked Zimmerman out of anger, and then Zimmerman shot him, I just can't feel sorry for him.
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Originally Posted by whogo
Yes, he would have been. He was not within his rights when he threw the first punch.
We do not know who threw the first punch! There are NO eyewitnesses to it that have come forward.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
I'm not saying someone can be shot for asking why are you following me. But, that isn't what happened anyway.
This is what happened. Trayvon was walking through the neighborhood in which he was living at the time, Zimmerman didn't recognize him and was concerned that he might be there to steal something, so Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon saw Zimmerman following him and at some point asked Zimmerman why he was following him, Zimmerman then asked Trayvon what he was doing there, they then repeated the questions to each other instead of answering each other, and at some point Trayvon ended up punching Zimmerman in the face, knocking him down, and jumping on top of him, at which time Zimmerman shot Trayvon.
Can you agree with me, that that is what happened?
No. You were not there. Anyone can cook up any kind of plausible scenario that did not happen.
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Originally Posted by EdwardA
Is profiling illegal? Why is this an issue in the case? I understand the prosecution listed "profiling" as some sort of reason to charge Zimmerman in the 2nd degree but I still don't get it.
I don't think you are getting what defenders of Trayvon are trying to write..
The reason why he was charged with 2nd degree murder was because the prosecution believes that there was disregard for Human life. It seems that it is important for the court to know that Trayvon was being followed. Regardless of who threw the first punch, Zimmerman could have avoided the situation.
The problem is, Zimmerman wasn't required to avoid the situation. And when you argue that Zimmerman could have avoided the situation. So could have Trayvon. Both of them made stupid decisions leading up the death of Trayvon. The problem is that Trayvon is the one who attacked Zimmerman.
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One of the witnesses stated that he saw Trayvon shadow being chased by Zimmerman. If the cries for help are Trayvon there is a chance that the manslaughter charge is justified.
I agree, if Trayvon was begging for help and then gets shot anyway, then it would certainly prove that Trayvon was probably not a threat to Zimmerman, and that his shooting Martin wasn't justified.
The problem is that, there are no ways to prove or disprove that it was Martins voice. In fact, his father originally claimed that it wasn't his voice. It is obviously opportunistic for both sides to claim the voice calling for help.
I don't think you are getting what defenders of Trayvon are trying to write..
The reason why he was charged with 2nd degree murder was because the prosecution believes that there was disregard for Human life. It seems that it is important for the court to know that Trayvon was being followed. Regardless of who threw the first punch, Zimmerman could have avoided the situation. One of the witnesses stated that he saw Trayvon shadow being chased by Zimmerman. If the cries for help are Trayvon there is a chance that the manslaughter charge is justified.
The witnesses saw a shadow or shadows, how could they possibly know who was who...
Shadow: a dark area or shape...
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Do you live in Florida? What did I say that was incorrect regarding Gov Scott and drug testing? He was only elected in Nov 2010. So no law he passed could have been in effect for a long time.
