Why do the males get no say? (laws, single, difference)
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Actually, this is NOT true. Usually a judge (and many times the mother) has to consent for him to sign his parental rights away.
If men could sign their parental rights away, I would not involved in this debate, except to criticize those who "change their mind" and signed it away after the birth. I'm not for that at all, men and women should have an equal opt out period.
Most in this thread are fine with the woman having 100% final decision in regards to abortion or having the child. That is not the issue in this thread. The issue is the man being able to opt out legally without the mother's consent. The mother should accept the responsibility of her choice and raise the baby on her own if she chooses not to have an abortion. Of course if the man wants to be involved, they should raise the baby together, but we're talking about men who do not want the baby in this thread.
If one person is able to make the choice without the other's consent, that one person should have to accept the full responsibility if the other party doesn't want to be involved.
If one party has the choice to opt out after conception, the other should as well. It's pretty straightforward. Using nine months is a red herring since it's a CHOICE to go through those nine months and become a parent. In fact, a woman with 4 kids has already debunked the whole pregnancy excuse and no one has responded to her yet.
I'm simply seeking that same choice for the one person to opt in or out without consent of the other.
It may vary between states, but I personally know two different men who totally signed away all rights to their children and that freed them of any decisions in the child's life and also gave them 100% freedom of financial obligation.
That's been a while back, and maybe things have changed. ??
You're a guy aren't you? Have you experienced the challenges of being a single woman, pregnant and how that nine months affects you. I've been there and done that, and that is precisely why I only have one child. Ever try to get a job when you're pregnant? In the early 80's people would not hire a single pregnant woman. At least, they didn't hire me. Ever been subjected to the outright, rude stares of complete strangers? (I still don't know why people stared at me so much as I was 26 and not a teen-ager). I was an above avrage attractive young woman, and pregnant. That gives people the right to stare at you like you're a freak? Do you know what it feels like to be forced to go to church charities to clothe your newborn? Almost 100% of the baby items I had for my newborn daughter was used and meant for a boy. (that's what was available) Physically, pregnancy and even giving birth with no pain medicine was a breeze. Emotionally, it was a nightmare. After that I refused to ever, ever, ever allow myself to be placed in such a vulnarable a position again. Ever.
As I said, men do not get much of what is involved in pregnancy. Every woman is different. We have different experiences with it, and different factors that drive our decisions. I don't think most men grasp what I went through, or how people treat you when you're single and pregnant. For someone like me, who has always been strong and very independent being vulnarable is not an option.
After my daughter was born I made sure to break out of poverty via higher education. It took me a long time, but I did it. I did not want to be dependent on anyone, especially a man, in any way, shape or form. I accomplished that. I also did not ever allow myself to become impregnated again. Hell no.
Oh please, how many times have you heard men say if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she should just "keep her legs closed"?
Guess that one works for men too......"just keep it in your pants".
Yes, men say keep your legs closed. But the difference is a woman can open her legs and still have a way out if she doesn't want to pay for a baby. If the man has sex, he risks being put in a scenario where he has to pay for an unwanted baby.
I keep saying this on the thread. Why is it not sinking in?
Actually, a male can sign all rights away to the baby and be free of any responsibility, financial or otherwise.
This proves once again why the decision regarding abortion lies with the one who carries the biggest burden, in most cases, the female.
You men just do not get it, and you won't get ever fully get it until you are subject to getting pregnant, nine months of life altering period, and the remainder of your life as a parent. It doesn't magically stop when they turn 18, so it's an important decision to make whether one commits to that baby. It's for life.
You're right that a man can sign away all rights. But that method is not foolproof. There's no guarantee that his request will be granted.
If his request was guaranteed to be granted, more men would do that. If the request was guaranteed to be granted, this thread wouldn't exist. If the request was guaranteed to be granted, the men wouldn't complain.
When are you male control freaks going to realize this is an issue for the women and only the women? Males have no say because he should not have any say. For males to have a say leads to the return of male domination of an individual woman's right to decide what is going to happen to her own body. That body is hers and not the any males including the one that impregnated her.
HER FREEDOM AND HER CHOICE AND NOT OURS.
No one ever implied that we should make the choice for her. We just want a level playing field. We can't force her to pay for an unwanted baby, so she shouldn't be able to force us to pay.
The fetus is a potential child but the woman is an existing individual that happens to be pregnant. To stay pregnant or not is HER CHOICE.
If I were female I would insist on the right to control my own body for my own reason. As I am male I will not put restrictions on anyone else that I would not tolerate being placed on me.
What about the male being forced to pay for an unwanted baby? That's a restriction. Would you tolerate that restriction being placed on you?
For the most part, the woman ends up taking care of the child. If they aren't together, the woman does almost all of the work. Usually the man ends up paying. It can go either way though. Sometimes the woman ends up paying and the man ends up doing the raising. If it never went either way it would be unfair but because there are men raising kids and the woman is paying, it's not unfair just a very uneven percentage.
You're right that a woman can get stuck paying child support if the male has custody. But the difference is, in that case, the woman chose to have the baby. She's paying child support on a baby she chose to have. If she didn't want to pay child support, she could get an abortion. If a male doesn't want to pay child support, there's no way out.
I noticed one of the arguments on this thread was: "If we gave males a way out, then no males would pay for a baby."
But that's not true. There are some men (on this very thread) that think it's a man's responsibility to pay for a baby, wanted or unwanted. Those men would pay for a baby. And the men that want a baby would pay for a baby.
Sure, there would be some men that don't pay if we passed a law that said they don't need to. But there are females that get out of paying by having an abortion. Same concept.
It may vary between states, but I personally know two different men who totally signed away all rights to their children and that freed them of any decisions in the child's life and also gave them 100% freedom of financial obligation.
That's been a while back, and maybe things have changed. ??
Good morning,
If you give me your state, I'd be happy to look it up and post the results, even if it goes against my position. I'd certainly like to know if the men you know were able to sign over their parental rights without the agreement of the judge and possibly the mother. That's not unilateral if you have to get one or two other people's permission. There is no judge or father permission for abortion (and there should not be), so it's not an equal comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecovlke
You're a guy aren't you? Have you experienced the challenges of being a single woman, pregnant and how that nine months affects you. I've been there and done that, and that is precisely why I only have one child. Ever try to get a job when you're pregnant? In the early 80's people would not hire a single pregnant woman. At least, they didn't hire me. Ever been subjected to the outright, rude stares of complete strangers? (I still don't know why people stared at me so much as I was 26 and not a teen-ager). I was an above avrage attractive young woman, and pregnant. That gives people the right to stare at you like you're a freak? Do you know what it feels like to be forced to go to church charities to clothe your newborn? Almost 100% of the baby items I had for my newborn daughter was used and meant for a boy. (that's what was available) Physically, pregnancy and even giving birth with no pain medicine was a breeze. Emotionally, it was a nightmare. After that I refused to ever, ever, ever allow myself to be placed in such a vulnarable a position again. Ever.
What does the challenges of a voluntary pregnancy have to do with allowing the man to opt out of parenthood without permission? Your pregnancy would be exactly the same whether the man is in the picture or not, since a hypothetical man discussed in this thread doesn't want the baby.
Using the "you're not a woman" argument is fine, just realize that you still had a CHOICE to go through with the pregnancy. If your pregnancy wasn't a good experience, I'm sorry to hear it. But once again, if you ever have an "oops" in the future, you can opt out of parenthood by having an abortion without anyone's permission. My only goal here is to give men that same option to opt out without permission. I am not trying to take any options or rights away from women.
The 80s are no longer here, that's like me as a Black man erroneously using pre-1960s America as a debating tactic in a race thread. I'm sorry you went through that, but it's still not an excuse to accept this unequal treatment to men who didn't do anything wrong to you. Let's be happy those days aren't here anymore and you wouldn't have to deal with being fired or strange looks if you were pregnant today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecovlke
As I said, men do not get much of what is involved in pregnancy. Every woman is different. We have different experiences with it, and different factors that drive our decisions. I don't think most men grasp what I went through, or how people treat you when you're single and pregnant. For someone like me, who has always been strong and very independent being vulnarable is not an option.
Not all women agree with your nightmare excuse for pregnancy. No one has attempted to challenge ChocLot's excellent post below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot
Not sure why some folks are being so rude and condescending towards the OP. I agree with his position. As a woman with 4 children, I know all there is to know about pregnancy. It's not 9 months of agonizing hell. I wonder why some women exaggerate the experience of pregnancy/childbirth/etc? Sure it is hard work, but is it the nightmare that some will have you believe? No. Otherwise, we'd have an extremely small population here in the US.
I 100% agree that the system is slanted towards the woman. I don't care about it being "her body". A mistake by TWO people should not be dictated by ONE. Period. You want the baby? Fine.....have it KNOWING that you will receive no aid...let's see how long those warm and fuzzy feelings last.
BTW, I knew many girls growing up who used abortions as BC. One girl I knew had 5 and had trouble getting pregnant later in life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecovlke
After my daughter was born I made sure to break out of poverty via higher education. It took me a long time, but I did it. I did not want to be dependent on anyone, especially a man, in any way, shape or form. I accomplished that. I also did not ever allow myself to become impregnated again. Hell no.
I am glad that you broke out of poverty. I don't see why you disagree with me since you say you don't want to be dependent on a man. What I'm advocating for changes nothing for women's rights.
I never thought I'd say this, but the pro-lifers have a point. As another poster said, at least the pro-lifers are consistent. They tell both genders to either stay celibate or accept the consequences of sex. The female pro-choicers want females to have loads of sex and have a way out, but give the male no way out if he wants loads of sex. You can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too. That's why I said I guess I'm not pro-choice...I'm pro-abortion. Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that I'm a male pro-choicer so I think differently than female pro-choicers.
Female pro-choicers think "I want a way out if I don't want the baby. But if I want the baby, I don't want the male to have a way out."
Male pro-choicers think "Both genders should have a way out. They should both have the choice of whether or not to pay for a baby."
Yes, men say keep your legs closed. But the difference is a woman can open her legs and still have a way out if she doesn't want to pay for a baby. If the man has sex, he risks being put in a scenario where he has to pay for an unwanted baby.
I keep saying this on the thread. Why is it not sinking in?
There is no 100% method of stopping a unwanted pregnancy, except abstaintion. The 'pill', condoms, everything fails. If you have sex, it can happen. A fact of life, been happening for years. I know a man who got two seperate women pregnant, at different times (married to both), while they were on the pill. It happens.
If it happens, be a man, accept responsibility.
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Sure it is hard work, but is it the nightmare that some will have you believe? No. Otherwise, we'd have an extremely small population here in the US.
