How much does New Jersey harm Philadelphia? (Levittown, York: middle-class, transplants)

[soug]

What Heaven is trying to say is that you two need to take it down several notches. In dozens of threads, you both play to stereotypes that I am positive neither of you actually believe in. The world isn't simply black or white, and your continuous arguments are not even remotely close to rational discussion that helps potential movers. I am sure I am not the only one who gets really aggravated when you two go at it for no reason constantly. At some point this century, we will find a balance between urban and suburban living. Summers, you are wrong when you say the suburbs will fail. Frank, you are wrong when you say cities are failing. Both will succeed in the upcoming years as different demographics move fluidly between the two and revitalize both.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by Summersm343

That could be true... cities weren't exactly clean back then, and often had factories and manufacturing plants next to residential buildings, but people who initially moved to the suburbs were given tax breaks and tax incentives, much in the way that people in subsidized and section 8 houses are today. The suburbs weren't built to offer people a better way of life, because honestly, Capitalists don't give a rats ass about the general population, they only care about making profit. The suburbs were built so the government can make money during the depression. No if, ands, or buts about it. That's all it was for.


Cities do offer everything to raise a family and arguably more for more people. You forget that some of the best schools within the metro are actually WITHIN the city limits of Philadelphia. Penn Alexander, Masterman, Meredith, Central, etc. etc. Let's try to look at things from a fair and balanced perspective if we are going to have this conversation Frank.

Now if we look at suburbs from another perspective, their creation is coming back to nip this country in the butt. We are sprawling outward instead of maintaining existing infrastructure. Inner ring suburbs are starting to decline all around the U.S... everything that people tried to escape by moving to the suburbs is now following them to the suburbs.

Who told you that?

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by Summersm343

Please tell me what I said, that was:

A. Offensive
B. Vitriolic
C. Untrue

Please. I would like to know.

I offered what I think is a fair critique of the majority of the suburbs in the United States.

Also, when do I ever say anything stereotypical? Is it actually stereotypical? Or just painfully true, and you don't like to hear it?

I would like to see a happy medium between urban and suburban as well, but there are some deep dark truths that seep through the veins of EVERY American suburb that needs to be addressed, and IDK why it is taboo to talk about it while on the other hand, no one bats an eye as cities continued to be bashed by those from the suburbs.

What the city offers that the suburbs DON'T is certainly plenty. You proved my point, you have to DRIVE to do anything of interest. All the action is in the city. I can walk to anything you have to drive to. I can walk to the bar or a restaurant or for shopping. I have access to world class public transit, my job, world class shopping, museums, restaurants, bars, parks, sporting events, and grocery stores all within walking distance. Anywhere too far to walk I can take public transit to. I am in the middle of a large metropolitan city surrounded by hundreds of thousands of people within a couple mile radius. I can even just walk with nothing to do and have interesting architecture and an interesting street scape all around me, with thousands of other people out and about, not a monotonous walk through the suburbs with the same house over and over again where your lucky to see even one person. Also, in the city, people converse and are friendly. In the suburbs, someone will call the cops on you if you get to close to their house. In the city, there is a sense of community like no suburb you can find. People converse, when you walk down the street people will say hi, or good morning. In the suburbs you will get a rude glance and no response if you say hi to anyone you don't know. There is no sense of community. Everyone lives in the same house with the same yard with the same two cars and two kids, everyone drives to work from 9-5 to drive back home again and do the same thing over again the next day. Any action besides the shopping mall or the nearest Friday's (or other chain restaurant) is within the city where you HAVE TO DRIVE TO... then have to drive back home at night, so you can't have any fun. There are some few good exceptions of suburbs IMO like New Hope, Collingswood, Media, etc... but they are still inferior to the vibe of the city.

Mostly the bolded, which is not a "fair critique" but a long hackneyed generalization, especially when you extend your criticisms beyond the infrastructure and to the people themselves. I don't know where you got the idea that there's some huge disparity between city dwellers their suburban counterparts, but in my experience, when you correct for age and socioeconomic status, people really aren't all that different across the region. Between a custom estate in Rydal, a restored rowhouse in Fitler Square, and a McMansion in Cherry Hill, I very much prefer the former two options. But stereotypes aside, the general attitude and mindset you'd encounter is on basically the same wavelength.

[UDResident]

Originally Posted by Summersm343

The creation of the suburbs almost killed every city in this country from the 60s to the 80s... this is nothing unique to Philadelphia.

That's where you're wrong. They only almost killed older, industrialized, urban cities like Philadelphia, Cleveland, Detroit, etc etc.

And I'm not talking about from the 60s-80s. South Jersey, Bucks, Montco, and Chester Counties were still killing the city and other older, urban parts of the metro in the early 2000s. Hell... look at the cuts to the funding in the city and the slashing of education funding/closing of schools. They're STILL trying to kill the city.

Originally Posted by frankgn87

The unsafe, unclean, bad school environments almost killed cities. People moved out of the cities for a better life. If the cities offered everything everyone wanted to raise a family, the burbs would never have flourished over time.

Enough already!


I want to make it very clear that I have no problem with people who "move up" from generation to generation, as that is what I think people should do. You should always strive to give your kids better than you had, of course. I know plenty of people who moved out of my neighborhood to do just that. Here's the difference They weren't from Bucks County. They didn't go to Council Rock. They were from the neighborhood, or Philly, or some other working class place. They went to the neighborhood school district, or SE Delco, or Chester-Upland, or William Penn, or even Philly schools. They actually were "working class heroes" just "moving up" like the generations before them had. I am sick and tired of seeing people act like perfectly good, middle to upper-middle class neighborhoods in the city aren't places you can raise a kid or are places you need to "move up" from. I hate to break it to you, but South Jersey is no better than Northeast Philly, both the good and bad parts. It's not the Main Line, and with very few exceptions, is nothing but post-war sprawl. If you want to say that the taxes are too high in Northeast or other similar sections of the city compared to their suburban counterparts, then okay. Don't try to talk like South Jersey or Bucks County are any better than the Northeast though because they aren't. As I said, with few exceptions, South Jersey and Bucks County are merely the "new" Northeast. Guess who's following you there, frank? The same people you've been running from this whole time. Do you know how I know that? Because it happened/is happening in my county, too.

As for what you can't find in the suburbs? You can't find real community in the suburbs. When it comes to raising kids, that's what actually matters. Where are the role-models, the block captains, etc? Nowhere to be found in the suburbs. You can't find real culture either. I don't mean the "high class" stuff. I mean real community of various ethnic groups.

Other than that, I think HeavenWood addressed most everything. He made some good points, and people would be wise to listen to them.

[RightonWalnut]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

Who told you that?

When I have some free time tonight I can send you some links

[RightonWalnut]

Originally Posted by HeavenWood

Mostly the bolded, which is not a "fair critique" but a long hackneyed generalization, especially when you extend your criticisms beyond the infrastructure and to the people themselves. I don't know where you got the idea that there's some huge disparity between city dwellers their suburban counterparts, but in my experience, when you correct for age and socioeconomic status, people really aren't all that different across the region. Between a custom estate in Rydal, a restored rowhouse in Fitler Square, and a McMansion in Cherry Hill, I very much prefer the former two options. But stereotypes aside, the general attitude and mindset you'd encounter is on basically the same wavelength.

Just detailing my personal experiences

[UDResident]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

Who told you that?

He's right. Never heard of the GI Bill?

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by UDResident

He's right. Never heard of the GI Bill?

I most certainly did & that money could be used in a city as well as anywhere else. My father used his when he bought our first house in a city. Our later move to Cherry Hill was all on his dime. The case was the same for my friends families. I'm a babyboomer & my father was a WWII vet. My friends fathers were WII vets. The statement that I challenged was a real reach.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by Summersm343

When I have some free time tonight I can send you some links

I don't need your links. If you want to post them, go ahead. You made a public statement, post your links publicly.

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by soug

What Heaven is trying to say is that you two need to take it down several notches. In dozens of threads, you both play to stereotypes that I am positive neither of you actually believe in. The world isn't simply black or white, and your continuous arguments are not even remotely close to rational discussion that helps potential movers. I am sure I am not the only one who gets really aggravated when you two go at it for no reason constantly. At some point this century, we will find a balance between urban and suburban living. Summers, you are wrong when you say the suburbs will fail. Frank, you are wrong when you say cities are failing. Both will succeed in the upcoming years as different demographics move fluidly between the two and revitalize both.

What soug said.

Let's redirect this conversation back to how the NJ suburbs affect Philadelphia, for better or for worse.