X-Men: Apocalypse (Warner, Hollywood, adventure, crime)

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The point is that box office could be made back in an opening weekend or make back a significant amount. Blade was a hit based on the budget while all of the X-Men movies have been true hits making 150m+.

That applies to X-Men, X2 and The Last Stand, too.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I'll have to disagree with you on that because Days of Future Past was just slightly better than First Class and the Apocalypse trailer was underwhelming.

Fixed.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I can see that BUT Challengers were Fantastic Four but non-powered.

Right, because they came first.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Johnny Storm and the Jim Hammond Human Torches are like comparing the Alan Scott and Jay Garrick versions of Green Lantern and The Flash with Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. They have names and similar base powers but not the personalities and more modernized tweeks. Remember Hammond was an android that caught fire. Captain America and Namor were the only two true Marvel Golden Age characters to fully transfer into the Silver Age.

I agree with the last two, but the '40s Human Torch and Johnny Storm never occupied the same universe at the same time. At least not initially.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

There are similarities, there's also similarities in The Wrestler and Birdman but they also differ in their own ways.

A bit much of a reach.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Doom Patrol were virtually a Fantastic Four (just look at looks and powers of the initial characters) but with no link between the individuals other than being brought together The Chief. X-Men were brought together by Professor X BUT all had their powers come from birth (though some villains got powers from artifacts and experimentation or even terrigensys (after House of M.)

Apart from a couple references in Thor in the late '60s, the Terragen Crystals and Mists weren't really pushed forward as an expositional aspect until House of M and Son of M and Inhumans in the 2000s.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The Space Opera genre depends on how the other films go. Should Star Trek Beyond be a step back, we may not see more like a Black Hole reboot (something Disney looked to do.) Rogue One is an if despite being a Star Was film because it is the first movie in the Anthology/Story series of Star Wars movie and is an untested idea of a film series.

Expanding on the Star Wars Universe is like minting money and Disney knows it. I just wonder if the masses can burn out on it or will they (we) continue to indulge it. Space opera is more than Star Wars and Star Trek (which is closer to real SF), though. Studios will continue to try things. Like that terrible movie with Mila Kunis and Channing Tatum.

Hey, maybe we'll get a remake of Star Crash.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by vision33r

I just hope they stop making Wolverine the center of every X-Men movie. Logan in the comic books always disappears for awhile and only comes back in time of need.

Obviously you never saw First Class where he was literally in for a smoke and a drink. Apocalypse is supposed to be limited amounts of Wolverine and after Wolverine 3, Hugh looks to be done.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

That applies to X-Men, X2 and The Last Stand, too.

X-Men and X2 made four times their budgets while Last Stand made double it because of an outrageous 210m budget.

Fixed.

No because that was IMO. I happen to think it looks epic. You may not but I loved it for its 90's X-Men cartoon look and feel.

Right, because they came first.

Yes but it don't make it a knockoff or ripoff.

I agree with the last two, but the '40s Human Torch and Johnny Storm never occupied the same universe at the same time. At least not initially.

The Golden Age Human Torch was barely used after the Silver Age reboot. Mainly because it isn't the best of ideas, especially when Johnny Storm is a good character.

A bit much of a reach.

So is claiming most of the DC groups you are for being ripped off by Marvel characters that came afterwards.

Apart from a couple references in Thor in the late '60s, the Terragen Crystals and Mists weren't really pushed forward as an expositional aspect until House of M and Son of M and Inhumans in the 2000s.

Yes but that is because the Inhumans were there but not really focused upon besides when they would get their own books just about once a decade.

Expanding on the Star Wars Universe is like minting money and Disney knows it. I just wonder if the masses can burn out on it or will they (we) continue to indulge it. Space opera is more than Star Wars and Star Trek (which is closer to real SF), though. Studios will continue to try things. Like that terrible movie with Mila Kunis and Channing Tatum.

Hey, maybe we'll get a remake of Star Crash.

I think that having an anthology movie (now stories) every off year to the saga film could work but it depends on the types of stories told in the movies. For example, I'd love to see a lot of X-Men properties (Cable, X-Force, Star Jammers, New Mutants, etc.) but they only work iff they can tell the right stories given the current universe and how big they are.

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

X-Men and X2 made four times their budgets while Last Stand made double it because of an outrageous 210m budget.

X-Men took about four months to hit that total. Not the kind of statistic the studios generally like to cite. It was more a sleeper hit.

X2 fared better because its foreign take roughly matched its domestic. It acquired about two-thirds of its final domestic cumulative total in the first couple weeks, but after that it was a slow but steady crawl for the next couple months.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

No because that was IMO. I happen to think it looks epic. You may not but I loved it for its 90's X-Men cartoon look and feel.

It doesn't look half as interesting as BvS, Civil War or Suicide Squad. Again, that's me.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Yes but it don't make it a knockoff or ripoff.

Inspiration? That's the word they use for George Lucas when they want to be diplomatic regarding his liberal borrowing from films and literature.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The Golden Age Human Torch was barely used after the Silver Age reboot. Mainly because it isn't the best of ideas, especially when Johnny Storm is a good character.

Yes.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

So is claiming most of the DC groups you are for being ripped off by Marvel characters that came afterwards.

Marvel's borrowed quite a few ideas from DC. How many times do you figure Batman's been ripped off? The most obvious examples are Moon Knight and Nighthawk, but even Iron Man can be argued as one after Stan made some "adjustments" to his origin in the '60s.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I think that having an anthology movie (now stories) every off year to the saga film could work but it depends on the types of stories told in the movies. For example, I'd love to see a lot of X-Men properties (Cable, X-Force, Star Jammers, New Mutants, etc.) but they only work iff they can tell the right stories given the current universe and how big they are.

Rogue One is practically guaranteed to show Vader onscreen again. It takes place in the time between ROTS and ANH. So that's a major draw right there.

X-Force is rumored to be in the talking stage. I thought New Mutants was, too, but I guess not.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

X-Men took about four months to hit that total. Not the kind of statistic the studios generally like to cite. It was more a sleeper hit.

X-Men was fairing pretty good for a mid-summer blockbuster not opening on the 4th of July. In 7 weeks, it made 150m during a packed summer season. X-Men battled in the box office with The Perfect Storm, Nutty Professor 2: The Klumps, What Lies Beneath, Pokemon: The Movie 2000, Coyote Ugly, Space Cowboys and Scary Movie. That is a good amount of competition.

X2 fared better because its foreign take roughly matched its domestic. It acquired about two-thirds of its final domestic cumulative total in the first couple weeks, but after that it was a slow but steady crawl for the next couple months.

X2 came out the first weekend of the summer movie weekend, May 2-4 2003. It's biggest competition week one was The Lizzie McGuire Movie. In future weeks it battled with Daddy Day Care and the ultimately The Matrix Reloaded. It only fell out of the top 10 during the weekend of June 22-24. X-Men fell out sooner due to a packed back end line up for 2000.

It doesn't look half as interesting as BvS, Civil War or Suicide Squad. Again, that's me.

Batman V. Superman is interesting but not for the story. Civil War looks interesting but I am not wowed, it has Marvel goodwill. Suicide Squad needs the goodwill that can come from a great Batman V. Superman movie. X-Men: Apocalypse had a GREAT trailer that explained its backstory without huge spoilers (Zodsday bringing Batman & Superman together anyone?) and the X-Men goodwill.

Inspiration? That's the word they use for George Lucas when they want to be diplomatic regarding his liberal borrowing from films and literature.

To create a fresh story that wasn't new or groundbreaking at the time, what was, was the effects. There is a reason Fantastic Four is more memorable than Challengers. Doesn't matter what exactly came first, what matters most times is what becomes iconic. What came first often becomes a footnote if they aren't as successful. See Doom Patrol vs. X-Men.

Marvel's borrowed quite a few ideas from DC. How many times do you figure Batman's been ripped off? The most obvious examples are Moon Knight and Nighthawk, but even Iron Man can be argued as one after Stan made some "adjustments" to his origin in the '60s.

Batman was even ripped off by DC with Green Lantern. The Golden Age Green Lantern was an archer Batman wearing a Robin Hood outfit.

Rogue One is practically guaranteed to show Vader onscreen again. It takes place in the time between ROTS and ANH. So that's a major draw right there.

The Vader presence isn't going to be big, it is likely to be a Leia role but for the Empire.

X-Force is rumored to be in the talking stage. I thought New Mutants was, too, but I guess not.

Both of these X-properties are indeed rumored to be happening. Interesting to note, a number of the comics New Mutants were in Days of Future Past, namely Warpath and Sunspot. To work as a movie, X-Force needs to be after a Cable movie IMHO. Otherwise we would see a movie with only a few mutants develved into.

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

X-Men was fairing pretty good for a mid-summer blockbuster not opening on the 4th of July. In 7 weeks, it made 150m during a packed summer season. X-Men battled in the box office with The Perfect Storm, Nutty Professor 2: The Klumps, What Lies Beneath, Pokemon: The Movie 2000, Coyote Ugly, Space Cowboys and Scary Movie. That is a good amount of competition.

It was the first big-screen superteam film, too, so it did have that going for it. While I don't think it's aging well by any means, X-Men helps shoot down the argument that people think there needs to be a string of solo character films before a team film can happen. By that, I mean all the dork who think there should be another solo Batman film before something like BvS or Justice League.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

X2 came out the first weekend of the summer movie weekend, May 2-4 2003. It's biggest competition week one was The Lizzie McGuire Movie. In future weeks it battled with Daddy Day Care and the ultimately The Matrix Reloaded. It only fell out of the top 10 during the weekend of June 22-24. X-Men fell out sooner due to a packed back end line up for 2000.

I don't really see those as competition, apart from Reloaded. It had plenty of time to scoop up buckets of coin. It was a better film than the first one, too, though it had tons of problems.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Batman V. Superman is interesting but not for the story.

What don't you like about it?

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Civil War looks interesting but I am not wowed, it has Marvel goodwill.

I read a lot of the issues they're sourcing, so I'm very interested. With the Russos' directorship, it will be a very good film. (It's Avengers 2.5, technically.)

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Suicide Squad needs the goodwill that can come from a great Batman V. Superman movie.

Tom Hardy said the script is "alley" (awesome). He was pissed he couldn't be in it because he was filming The Revenant (which looks awesome, too).

Originally Posted by mkpunk

X-Men: Apocalypse had a GREAT trailer that explained its backstory

The trailer wasn't all that. Remove Apocalypse and it looks like it DoFP outtakes. The CGI needs a lot of work, too. I don't like how Singer takes these characters and makes them the Emo-Men. Also, what do you say about a trailer when the most interesting bit is seeing a bald Xavier?

Originally Posted by mkpunk

without huge spoilers (Zodsday bringing Batman & Superman together anyone?)

That's no spoiler. The movie leads directly into Justice League. That means the JL exists at the end of BvS, or the first act of Justice League, or comes into being between the two films. I don't think Zodsday is the only big bad in the film, either. It's no more a spoiler than showing Apocalypse growing huge.

Also, think of these two items, which are spoilers:

DoFP trailer: Magneto levitating the Mk. I Sentinels was a huge spoiler which more or less ruined the film's third act for me.

Avengers trailer: Hulk rescuing Iron Man in freefall. In the VERY FIRST trailer.

Now those are spoilers, baby!

Originally Posted by mkpunk

To create a fresh story that wasn't new or groundbreaking at the time, what was, was the effects. There is a reason Fantastic Four is more memorable than Challengers. Doesn't matter what exactly came first, what matters most times is what becomes iconic. What came first often becomes a footnote if they aren't as successful. See Doom Patrol vs. X-Men.

Most of the popular characters, minus Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Captain America, are post-Golden Age characters. And those characters have been rebooted numerous times by the likes of Denny O'Neil, Frank Miller, John Byrne, George Pérez, Ed Brubaker, and so on. Not to mention DC's Elseworlds and Marvel's Ultimates, which the film incarnations more closely resemble as of late.

In the case of Challengers and the FF, the latter did something the former did, just better. But without the former, you can't have the latter.

Here's another rock-solid example: Len Wein and Berni Wrightson co-created Swamp Thing, one of my favorite characters, who first appeared in the June-July 1971 issue of House of Secrets. Swamp Thing #1 appeared in the fall of 1972.

Roughly around that time, Roy Thomas and Gerry Conway co-created Man-Thing, who first appeared in the May 1971 issue of Savage Tales.

See how closely together they appeared at both houses? They also, initially, had similar origins, which is why Len and Berni changed Swamp Thing's for his own comic. (Len also wrote a Man-Thing story, the second-ever to be conceived after his first appearance.)

Here's the funny part: Len Wein and Gerry Conway were roommates. Do you chalk it up to cross-pollination? Unintentional idea-sharing? An accident? However you color it, both characters were pretty much conceived around the same time. But legend has it, since Marvel beat them to the proverbial publication punch by a MONTH, they had considered legal action! That's kind of funny considering how much borrowing Marvel's been known for since the '60s!

And yet, when you look at both characters' designs, which one far and away resembles — and by resembles, I mean RIPS OFF — the 1950s muck monster, The Heap?

Swamp Thing, rendered by Berni Wrightson:



Man Thing, rendered by Mike Ploog:



The Heap:



(As you can see, besides their facial similarities, the Heap and Man-Thing both share clawed hands and a generally massive upper frame.)

The answer you're thinking is the correct one. Marvel Comics and hypocrisy are well-acquainted.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Batman was even ripped off by DC with Green Lantern. The Golden Age Green Lantern was an archer Batman wearing a Robin Hood outfit.

Are you sure you're talking about Alan Scott? GL was co-created by Bill Finger, who co-created Batman. GL has always had a power ring, though its powers were at first magically derived.

And come on, Hawkeye is Marvel's answer to Green Arrow.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The Vader presence isn't going to be big, it is likely to be a Leia role but for the Empire.

We don't know, yet. There is barely any data available about that film. It may not be big, but it may not be that small, either.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Both of these X-properties are indeed rumored to be happening. Interesting to note, a number of the comics New Mutants were in Days of Future Past, namely Warpath and Sunspot. To work as a movie, X-Force needs to be after a Cable movie IMHO. Otherwise we would see a movie with only a few mutants develved into.

No Cable solo film is planned. X-Force has an entry on IMDb, though. But it's not official.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

It was the first big-screen superteam film, too, so it did have that going for it. While I don't think it's aging well by any means, X-Men helps shoot down the argument that people think there needs to be a string of solo character films before a team film can happen.By that, I mean all the dork who think there should be another solo Batman film before something like BvS or Justice League.

First off, the X-Men aren't a super team like The Avengers, JSA, JLA, etc. Instead they are more of a Fantastic Four or Guardians of the Galaxy actual team. Wolverine is the main star from the team and he wasn't huge until after the movies happened to be quite honest.

Second off, the way DC is doing their universe is all wrong IMO. But I'll save that for the DC threads because this is for the X-Men movies, not DC, not Marvel.

I don't really see those as competition, apart from Reloaded. It had plenty of time to scoop up buckets of coin. It was a better film than the first one, too, though it had tons of problems.

Well they weren't because it was earlier in a less packed 2003 early summer season. You had a few early summer movies at that point The Mummy in 1999, The Mummy Returns in 2001, The Scorpion King and Spider-Man in 2002, etc. but it wasn't as packed as it would be in future years with say 2014 having The Amazing Spider-Man 2, Godzilla, X-Men Days of Future Past and Maleficent.

What don't you like about it?

I'll link the thread when I post it so we don't clog this one up. EDIT: Why I Think The DC Universe Logic Is Flawed (Batman V. Superman, Suicide Squad, Justice League, etc.)

I read a lot of the issues they're sourcing, so I'm very interested. With the Russos' directorship, it will be a very good film. (It's Avengers 2.5, technically.)

Oh I am not denying what the Russos can do based on Winter Soldier, but this is a very nuanced idea even with the liberties they are taking to the story, that will be tough to do in a single movie.

Tom Hardy said the script is "alley" (awesome). He was pissed he couldn't be in it because he was filming The Revenant (which looks awesome, too).

I am not denying it looks good on paper. It just looks like they are hot shotting the movie a little too early. The concept is fine, just when they are trying to execute it seems off.

The trailer wasn't all that. Remove Apocalypse and it looks like it DoFP outtakes. The CGI needs a lot of work, too. I don't like how Singer takes these characters and makes them the Emo-Men. Also, what do you say about a trailer when the most interesting bit is seeing a bald Xavier?

I don't see Days of Future Past in the movie's trailer other than a serious, threatening tone to the movie. It is similar dark, belly of the beast tones BUT the reason for this is much different. In one, you had a cataclysmic event in the future that wiped out all mutant kind and in this new one, you have a cataclysmic event that wipes out the weak (a key thing that Apocalypse always looked to do in the comics.

To be fair, the CGI can be touched up in six months. It's not like the movie is coming in oh two months like Deadpool or three months like Batman v. Superman (and I'm just using that for time length.) Mind you, Apocalypse had a huge change in his look between ComicCon and the early pictures and his look for the trailer that just came out.
Before:

After:

That's no spoiler. The movie leads directly into Justice League. That means the JL exists at the end of BvS, or the first act of Justice League, or comes into being between the two films. I don't think Zodsday is the only big bad in the film, either. It's no more a spoiler than showing Apocalypse growing huge.

I don't think a big Apocalypse is a spoiler, it's establishing a threat. Judging by the X-Men in the trailer at the time Apocalypse invades the Xavier School for the Gifted, it honestly looks like it is earlier in the movie as there are no Cyclops, Jean, Nightcrawler or Jubliee in the squad. It looks to be Beast, Havok, Mystique, and Quicksilver in the scene that Xavier is toyed with by Apocalypse and his Horsemen.

Also, think of these two items, which are spoilers:

DoFP trailer: Magneto levitating the Mk. I Sentinels was a huge spoiler which more or less ruined the film's third act for me.

Avengers trailer: Hulk rescuing Iron Man in freefall. In the VERY FIRST trailer.

Now those are spoilers, baby!

We didn't know when those situations would happen in the movie though. Zodsday is clearly a second half situation that could even be in the last 20 minutes as a way to be the Dawn of Justice.

Often I find myself playing the "well this happened in the trailer, it hasn't happened in the film yet" game and that was one of those things.

Most of the popular characters, minus Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Captain America, are post-Golden Age characters. And those characters have been rebooted numerous times by the likes of Denny O'Neil, Frank Miller, John Byrne, George Pérez, Ed Brubaker, and so on. Not to mention DC's Elseworlds and Marvel's Ultimates, which the film incarnations more closely resemble as of late.

Captain America only really had two reboots. One removed the Strange Tales era Capt and the other was The Ultimates line. In most Marvel continuities besides The Ultimate, they were just an alternative future. Marvel Comics 2 was one of these as it was a lot of second generation heroes and villains including Cassie Lang, Susan Carter as American Dream (Capt's daughter), Mayday Parker as Spider-Girl and Hope Pym as the Red Queen.

In the case of Challengers and the FF, the latter did something the former did, just better. But without the former, you can't have the latter.

You never know. We could have seen FF without Challengers too or Challengers could have been FF from the start if Jack Kirby was allowed to do that at DC. We just don't know. It's like what I said with Darkseid coming from the New Gods which were intended to be a Marvel property.

Here's another rock-solid example: Len Wein and Berni Wrightson co-created Swamp Thing, one of my favorite characters, who first appeared in the June-July 1971 issue of House of Secrets. Swamp Thing #1 appeared in the fall of 1972.

Roughly around that time, Roy Thomas and Gerry Conway co-created Man-Thing, who first appeared in the May 1971 issue of Savage Tales.

See how closely together they appeared at both houses? They also, initially, had similar origins, which is why Len and Berni changed Swamp Thing's for his own comic. (Len also wrote a Man-Thing story, the second-ever to be conceived after his first appearance.)

Here's the funny part: Len Wein and Gerry Conway were roommates. Do you chalk it up to cross-pollination? Unintentional idea-sharing? An accident? However you color it, both characters were pretty much conceived around the same time. But legend has it, since Marvel beat them to the proverbial publication punch by a MONTH, they had considered legal action! That's kind of funny considering how much borrowing Marvel's been known for since the '60s!

Who knows who came up with the idea first if Len and Gerry were roommates. Perhaps both sat around drinking beer and talking about the comic characters they had ideas for. Maybe one (let's say Len for argument sake) did and told the other and then had two similar but different origins. It's not like Nova which besides replacing a ring with a helmet and removing will power, Nova is Green Lantern (without the other corps) just it came out some 20 years after.

Another "Marvel ripped off DC" is Deadpool. Deadpool is generally accepted as a knockoff of Deathstroke with even the name being a play off it (Wade Wilson vs. Slade Wilson.) However it is also worth noting that while there is ties to Deathstroke, Deadpool has ties to Spider-Man as well. See, at the time Deadpool was created, there was a man at Marvel drawing Spider-man named Todd MacFarlane who mentioned it was so much easier to do Spider-Man masked to limit the emotions when Fabian Nicieza and Rob Liefeld were looking at introducing a bad guy towards the end of New Mutants in the early 1990's. The design was at the least subconciously Deathstroke as Nicieza told Liefeld "This is Deathstroke from Teen Titans" upon seeing the design (Liefeld was a fan of Teen Titans) and at worst a rip-off.

And yet, when you look at both characters' designs, which one far and away resembles — and by resembles, I mean RIPS OFF — the 1950s muck monster, The Heap?

Never heard of him.

The answer you're thinking is the correct one. Marvel Comics and hypocrisy are well-acquainted.

Well DC did sue over Captain Marvel while Superman was originally not hero in the short story The Reign of the Superman which while done by Siegel and Shuster, was not a DC property (though they owned it when they would pitch the idea to DC. Basically this was an Angela situation except there was no Image comic before sending it over to be a Marvel character.

Are you sure you're talking about Alan Scott? GL was co-created by Bill Finger, who co-created Batman. GL has always had a power ring, though its powers were at first magically derived.

And come on, Hawkeye is Marvel's answer to Green Arrow.

I meant Green Arrow. I guess I had Lantern on the brain for some strange reason...
Anywho, it's the same reasoning I use when people lambast Arrow on CW for being too much of Batman but with Oliver Queen instead of Bruce Wayne, for crissakes, he was a rip-off to Batman in the early days besides being an archer.

And yes, Hawkeye is a Green Arrow, just he is not given any of the backstory that Oliver Queen had and instead of Black Canary, Hawkeye had Black Widow (who I believe existed before Canary as Hawkeye's psuedo-sidekick.)

We don't know, yet. There is barely any data available about that film. It may not be big, but it may not be that small, either.

True but if Vader was going to be a huge factor in it, I think we would have heard something about it by now.

No Cable solo film is planned. X-Force has an entry on IMDb, though. But it's not official.

There have been talks of a Cable movie and an X-Force movie for sometime, even before New Mutants was an option. Which IMO, bring back Sunspot and Warpath from Days of Future Past for New Mutants and claim they exist at that age in this new timeline. I mean hell if we can bring Xavier from the dead in The Last Stand back for the end of The Wolverine (because they showed Jean Grey's death) why can't we do that with them and then maybe throw in a few of the Generation X mutants as well. As for X-Force, it honestly depends where Deadpool aligns in the timeline as he and Cable are two of the more known members of that team (I defy anyone to name any other member without looking them up.) The only problem with the X-Men movie timeline is it as conovulted as a Flash timeline right now with the Days of Future Past reset button.

FYI, I can only really name two X-Force member off the top of my head without researching:

Spoiler

Psylocke
X-23 (the new Wolverine)

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

First off, the X-Men aren't a super team like The Avengers, JSA, JLA, etc. Instead they are more of a Fantastic Four or Guardians of the Galaxy actual team.

A superteam is a superteam is a superteam. They're a team. The members of the team are superpowered, or have abilities or skills beyond those of ordinary mortals. Hence, they're a superteam.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Second off, the way DC is doing their universe is all wrong IMO.

I commented in your thread.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Oh I am not denying what the Russos can do based on Winter Soldier, but this is a very nuanced idea even with the liberties they are taking to the story, that will be tough to do in a single movie.

A nuance is a fine difference, a subtle distinction. There's nothing subtle about that trailer. Or, if one feels the need to mince, ALL of these movies are "nuanced."

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I am not denying it looks good on paper. It just looks like they are hot shotting the movie a little too early. The concept is fine, just when they are trying to execute it seems off.

Too early for what? Or is it the fact that it's an ensemble film that bothers you?

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I don't see Days of Future Past in the movie's trailer other than a serious, threatening tone to the movie. It is similar dark, belly of the beast tones BUT the reason for this is much different. In one, you had a cataclysmic event in the future that wiped out all mutant kind and in this new one, you have a cataclysmic event that wipes out the weak (a key thing that Apocalypse always looked to do in the comics.

Again, my problem is Singer. It's what he does with the material, where he places his cameras, the way he directs action, etc. If Vaughn were directing, I would be very interested. He's a better director.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

To be fair, the CGI can be touched up in six months.

I'm not talking about Apocalypse himself. I mean the backgrounds and stuff floating through the air behind and around Storm and Magneto, for instance. It doesn't look good.

And they had to tweak Apocalypse because of the myriad jokes made at the expense of that photo (cosplay, etc.).

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I don't think a big Apocalypse is a spoiler, it's establishing a threat. Judging by the X-Men in the trailer at the time Apocalypse invades the Xavier School for the Gifted, it honestly looks like it is earlier in the movie as there are no Cyclops, Jean, Nightcrawler or Jubliee in the squad. It looks to be Beast, Havok, Mystique, and Quicksilver in the scene that Xavier is toyed with by Apocalypse and his Horsemen.

I don't know. It looks like more of the same to me, with more characters. The same tone, same "apocalyptic" or "mutant extinction" threat, same sets, etc.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

We didn't know when those situations would happen in the movie though.

In the case of DoFP, it was very obvious the shot of Magneto levitating the Sentinels behind him would play into the film's climax. Which it did. They shouldn't have shown that.

In the case of Hulk rescuing Iron Man, well, once things took a certain turn, you knew exactly when that was going to happen in Avengers. So that kind of took away something from the end of the movie while I was watching it. They shouldn't have shown that.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Zodsday is clearly a second half situation that could even be in the last 20 minutes as a way to be the Dawn of Justice.

You don't know when he shows up. It could be in the last 20 minutes or the last hour. It's not the first time a film has shown the Big Bad. Far from it.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Often I find myself playing the "well this happened in the trailer, it hasn't happened in the film yet" game and that was one of those things.

Which is exactly what happened for me in The Force Awakens (Kylo in the forest, looking for Rey and Finn), and I elaborated on the other movies above.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Captain America only really had two reboots. One removed the Strange Tales era Capt and the other was The Ultimates line.

Those are hard reboots. There are some "soft" reboots, but the thing to remember is that that term wasn't be used back then. When a new creative team radically reshaped a character, it wasn't called a "reboot." Untold Legend of the Batman retold his origin in flashback mode, with many details, but it wasn't called a "reboot." Whereas Frank Miller's Batman: Year One is now regarded as a hard reboot in hindsight only. So is John Byrne's take on Superman, beginning with Man of Steel.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

You never know. We could have seen FF without Challengers too or Challengers could have been FF from the start if Jack Kirby was allowed to do that at DC. We just don't know. It's like what I said with Darkseid coming from the New Gods which were intended to be a Marvel property.

Again, it's about what landed where. There are myriad "what if" scenarios.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Who knows who came up with the idea first if Len and Gerry were roommates. Perhaps both sat around drinking beer and talking about the comic characters they had ideas for. Maybe one (let's say Len for argument sake) did and told the other and then had two similar but different origins.

If you read more into it, that's more or less the gist of it, but what I was really getting at is how similar Man-Thing looks to the Heap, a 1950s muck monster that predated both Man-Thing and Swamp Thing.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Another "Marvel ripped off DC" is Deadpool.

Yeah. Liefeld and all that.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Never heard of him.

Now you have!

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I meant Green Arrow. I guess I had Lantern on the brain for some strange reason...
Anywho, it's the same reasoning I use when people lambast Arrow on CW for being too much of Batman but with Oliver Queen instead of Bruce Wayne, for crissakes, he was a rip-off to Batman in the early days besides being an archer.

He wasn't as violent as Batman back then (in the olden days, Batman even carried a gun). Green Arrow is more a derivation of Robin Hood than Batman. And notice in the CW show, he's not a rich playboy. The CW GA is inspired more by Mike Grell's Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

And yes, Hawkeye is a Green Arrow, just he is not given any of the backstory that Oliver Queen had and instead of Black Canary, Hawkeye had Black Widow (who I believe existed before Canary as Hawkeye's psuedo-sidekick.)

Not sure what you mean. Black Widow & Hawkeye were a duo before GA and Black Canary? Not sure about that.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

True but if Vader was going to be a huge factor in it, I think we would have heard something about it by now.

They're not going to release any info yet. TFA is what they're (over)promoting currently.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

A superteam is a superteam is a superteam. They're a team. The members of the team are superpowered, or have abilities or skills beyond those of ordinary mortals. Hence, they're a superteam.

A superteam in terms of comics is like Avengers, Defenders, JLA, JSA, where they may not team up all that often but do with major crises. etc. X-Men aren't that and are a regular team.

A nuance is a fine difference, a subtle distinction. There's nothing subtle about that trailer. Or, if one feels the need to mince, ALL of these movies are "nuanced."

It's not as straight up as the trailer makes it out and you know it.

Too early for what? Or is it the fact that it's an ensemble film that bothers you?

No because then I shouldn't fanboy over the X-Men movies because they are ensemble films. I do, so unless I am a hypocrite (which I am not by enjoying Guardians though being cautious on it at first) I can tell you, I am not. My criticism is the how and the why, not the actual fact they are doing one.

Again, my problem is Singer. It's what he does with the material, where he places his cameras, the way he directs action, etc. If Vaughn were directing, I would be very interested. He's a better director.

Well, you got me to agree with you, Vaughn is a better director. That said, I am entirely fine with Singer. It's like having to pick Spielberg or Nolan for director. Either way, you should get at worst a good movie.

I'm not talking about Apocalypse himself. I mean the backgrounds and stuff floating through the air behind and around Storm and Magneto, for instance. It doesn't look good.

It's still possible they can clean up those shots in the six months before it is released.

And they had to tweak Apocalypse because of the myriad jokes made at the expense of that photo (cosplay, etc.).

I know the Ivan Ooze joke but the cosplayer meme was stupid. How many times have we seen looks vastly different from the comments and nobody bats an eye at them?

I don't know. It looks like more of the same to me, with more characters. The same tone, same "apocalyptic" or "mutant extinction" threat, same sets, etc.

I can see that but it looks to be bigger than the just the mutants it was in Days of Future Past. See my thoughts on the bigger threat in the Star Wars: The Force Awakens thread for the example. I agree that it does look somewhat similar but that is getting to the nit-picky parts that on trailers I try not to see because it can be misdirection due to the cut of the trailer.

In the case of DoFP, it was very obvious the shot of Magneto levitating the Sentinels behind him would play into the film's climax. Which it did. They shouldn't have shown that.

In the case of Hulk rescuing Iron Man, well, once things took a certain turn, you knew exactly when that was going to happen in Avengers. So that kind of took away something from the end of the movie while I was watching it. They shouldn't have shown that.

I can somewhat agree but that happens with most action movies. ID4 was so great with the blow up the White House teaser because that was the major moment they showed. Compare to its sequel and that trailer is all over the place.

You don't know when he shows up. It could be in the last 20 minutes or the last hour. It's not the first time a film has shown the Big Bad. Far from it.

No but it shows, hey you know those two enemies that the movie is named for, yeah we gotta have them team up. SPOILER ALERT!

Which is exactly what happened for me in The Force Awakens (Kylo in the forest, looking for Rey and Finn), and I elaborated on the other movies above.

Well at first I thought it was the forest planet that got leveled by the First Order and not the Star Killer base planet. So that made it a bit of shock. That said, once they left that planet, we all knew where that fight would take place and you just waited for it. Just like the Clones to attack like in Attack of the Clones.

Those are hard reboots. There are some "soft" reboots, but the thing to remember is that that term wasn't be used back then. When a new creative team radically reshaped a character, it wasn't called a "reboot." Untold Legend of the Batman retold his origin in flashback mode, with many details, but it wasn't called a "reboot." Whereas Frank Miller's Batman: Year One is now regarded as a hard reboot in hindsight only. So is John Byrne's take on Superman, beginning with Man of Steel.

The untold tales and graphic novel stories like Year One, even Dark Knight Returns often aren't in canon. In particularly with DC who tries to cap their universes at 52. So you have Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3 and then you have other earths that fill the void that work at the time.

Again, it's about what landed where. There are myriad "what if" scenarios.

And as I mentioned, Doom Patrol seemingly was Fantastic Four (as their powers mirrored the first family's) but with a wheelchair bound leader who brought them together. Now I am sure aspects of Fantastic Four came from Challengers, most comics are at best inspired by others and at worst, blatant copies.

If you read more into it, that's more or less the gist of it, but what I was really getting at is how similar Man-Thing looks to the Heap, a 1950s muck monster that predated both Man-Thing and Swamp Thing.

...


Now you have!

Fair enough. Though, it makes me wonder what characters from the Golden Age were ripped off by Silver Age (or later) counter-parts regardless of whether it was DC, Timely or other publishers.

Yeah. Liefeld and all that.

I can see it but I tend to think it is a mix of the various stories and its more of the point of view like Obi-Wan's take on the death of Anakin Skywalker.

He wasn't as violent as Batman back then (in the olden days, Batman even carried a gun). Green Arrow is more a derivation of Robin Hood than Batman. And notice in the CW show, he's not a rich playboy. The CW GA is inspired more by Mike Grell's Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters.

And I believe some Kevin Smith run too but that is up for interpretation like the Nolan movies being true to the comics or not.

Not sure what you mean. Black Widow & Hawkeye were a duo before GA and Black Canary? Not sure about that.

I researched and found Black Widow and Hawkeye teaming into the 60's as villains while Canary wasn't in Green Arrow until like post-crisis.

They're not going to release any info yet. TFA is what they're (over)promoting currently.

Well yeah but let's remember, Episode VIII will overshadow Rogue One (and even be in early traditional marketing for it) just as Justice League could do with Wonder Woman and the second Infinity War easily could with the Marvel movies inbetween that and the first part. I'd say X-Men but Deadpool is its own thing.

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

A superteam in terms of comics is like Avengers, Defenders, JLA, JSA, where they may not team up all that often but do with major crises. etc. X-Men aren't that and are a regular team.

Again, same difference. All are officially sanctioned teams with changing line-ups. What do you mean "not team up all that often"? In the comics, each of those teams was a constant. In the MCU, they're doing it somewhat differently because they want each film to adhere to present-day chronology versus an episodic continuity. That's why we hear (but don't see) about Stark back to business as Iron Man in The Winter Soldier.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

It's not as straight up as the trailer makes it out and you know it.

LOL. Sure, buddy.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I can see that but it looks to be bigger than the just the mutants it was in Days of Future Past. See my thoughts on the bigger threat in the Star Wars: The Force Awakens thread for the example. I agree that it does look somewhat similar but that is getting to the nit-picky parts that on trailers I try not to see because it can be misdirection due to the cut of the trailer.

I wouldn't compare it to TFA. That was one of the biggest examples of mishandling a truly massive threat that I've ever seen. My bro-in-law is an immense Star Wars fanboy, and every criticism I vocalized, including the relative ease with which the X-Wing squadron dispatched the Starkiller, he met with "It's just the first movie! It's a trilogy!"

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I can somewhat agree but that happens with most action movies. ID4 was so great with the blow up the White House teaser because that was the major moment they showed. Compare to its sequel and that trailer is all over the place.

They did show the ginormity of that last assault ship or, presumably, mothership. The perspective may have been purposely misleading, but they made it appear positively gargantuan.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

No but it shows, hey you know those two enemies that the movie is named for, yeah we gotta have them team up. SPOILER ALERT!

You misunderstand. The key is the lower-case v that is part of the title. Zack explained it. And showing them standing side-by-side, IMO, is not a spoiler. This is not an adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns, however which way Miller's concept may have informed Snyder's vision for the movie.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Well at first I thought it was the forest planet that got leveled by the First Order and not the Star Killer base planet.

In spite of the absence of snow?

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The untold tales and graphic novel stories like Year One, even Dark Knight Returns often aren't in canon. In particularly with DC who tries to cap their universes at 52. So you have Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3 and then you have other earths that fill the void that work at the time.

TDKR is a future tale that can be stuck on the end of Batman's career like a Lego piece. It doesn't affect current ongoing story arcs. Year One/Two/Three were legitimately recognized reboots until the New 52 company-wide reboot.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

And as I mentioned, Doom Patrol seemingly was Fantastic Four (as their powers mirrored the first family's) but with a wheelchair bound leader who brought them together. Now I am sure aspects of Fantastic Four came from Challengers, most comics are at best inspired by others and at worst, blatant copies.

I can almost guarantee you you're the only guy who thinks the Doom Patrol was a riff on the Fantastic Four. Refer back to that quote by Drake.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Fair enough. Though, it makes me wonder what characters from the Golden Age were ripped off by Silver Age (or later) counter-parts regardless of whether it was DC, Timely or other publishers.

A few, no doubt.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I can see it but I tend to think it is a mix of the various stories and its more of the point of view like Obi-Wan's take on the death of Anakin Skywalker.

Not sure how this connects to Deadpool.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

And I believe some Kevin Smith run too but that is up for interpretation like the Nolan movies being true to the comics or not.

There may be some bits and pieces of Quiver in the show, but if so, it's distilled down into an unrecognizable mash. In that story, a dead GA is reanimated, has only his memories up to The Longbow Hunters, but Oliver's soul is absent, having chosen to remain in Heaven.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I researched and found Black Widow and Hawkeye teaming into the 60's as villains while Canary wasn't in Green Arrow until like post-crisis.

Post-Crisis? No, way before that. I know you're thinking of the actual comic that put both their names side-by-side on the cover, but they interacted in stories in the '70s in Green Lantern/Green Arrow, for example, when O'Neil and Adams were writing/drawing it, and beyond.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Well yeah but let's remember, Episode VIII will overshadow Rogue One (and even be in early traditional marketing for it) just as Justice League could do with Wonder Woman and the second Infinity War easily could with the Marvel movies inbetween that and the first part. I'd say X-Men but Deadpool is its own thing.

They won't do a full-on blitz of VIII until it's nearly time for Rogue One, because, well, they won't really have to. Five months will be plenty of time to promote VIII and Star Wars is a brand that sells itself.