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This thread is about abortion. The other poster brought in her adopted child to parade about on stage as if this made her a better person or more authoritative.
While I certainly agree that not everyone who adopts a special needs child (or worked with them extensive, as I have) is a social martyr, when that child is paraded around in such a manner, it is quite safe to assume, from MY personal experiences with the parents of adopted special need chidlren, that that person is indeed a social martyr.
No it doesn't match only my opinion this person stated the facts about adoption.
One thing that you need to get your arms around is that while you may think you are so smart, you aren't in someone's head, know their intention or story. So for you to be so arrogant as to say this person is grandstanding is pompous at best.
You are seeking to dramatize everything here and it isn't working to well for you.
We're all 'bundles of cells'..every last one of us. An embryo isn't a 'stand-alone human being'....but neither is a one-year old. It's a slippery slope, in my opinion, trying to offer 'proof' that that which is NOT human at some point BECOMES human...it just sounds too 'convenient' to me. It's all right to 'terminate' it, because it's not human. Pretty nifty, if you can wrap your mind around that. What about 'partial birth' abortion? It's OK there to 'abort' a fetus in the 9th month...but NOT OK, one would presume, to strangle a premature infant after he was born in the 8th month. Pretty convenient, indeed.
You'll note I'm not too big on these "proofs" people seem so keen to offer..(or to demand). I seem to recall a century ago, the trial of a young Cavalry officer, who was being prosecuted for murdering an entire village of Indians..men, women, children. His defense was that "Indians are not fully human". When the prosecution gave an example of Indians 'making families'...'forming marital bonds'....'loving their relatives'..each point was refuted because "coyotes also have eyes and ears"..."seagulls also mate"...and "monkeys also care for their elderly"....in other words, the defense would entertain NO example as "proof" that Indians were human. I have an interest in this, married as I am to an Indian, who's given me three kids and four grandkids...ALL of whom, in my opinion, are fully human, even though I can't prove that fact to your..or anyone else's...satisfaction.
You find much amusement in the thought that anyone would call an embryo "human". So be it..that's your call. I can't remember the name of the delightful college professor (works at Rutgers, I believe), who every year or so comes up with HIS pet idea...that a mother should be able to abort a 'fetus' right up until 'its' first birthday. Wonderful fellow, with a wicked sense of logic. He feels that until age one, a child's survival should be at the 'pleasure' of its mother...since she's the one society "forces" to care for it. It's her body, you see, and we have no right to "make" her care for something she doesn't want to care for.
I'm sure if you asked the professor, he'd be able to "prove" his reasons for feelingthe way he does. Don't know if he'd convince you, but I'm sure he feels that 'solid reasoning' backs him up. And it would be one HELL of a nifty cure for 'post-partum depression', you'll have to agree.
I can't 'prove' a fetus is a human being....nor can I prove that you or I are. You're welcome to your opinions, which are obviously different from mine.
I suppose there were those in Alabama 150 years ago who could "prove" that Africans weren't human, either...("How can an African be HUMAN? If they were HUMAN, you couldn't buy or SELL them")...which may sound 'nutty'...but it's a pretty good argument, if you have a financial interest in the continuance of the Slave Trade, and would suffer 'hardship' if that practice ended.
"A fetus isn't a person"?...Nope, I'm afraid that just sounds too 'convenient' to me....sorry if that offends you.
No it doesn't match only my opinion this person stated the facts about adoption.
One thing that you need to get your arms around is that while you may think you are so smart, you aren't in someone's head, know their intention or story. So for you to be so arrogant as to say this person is grandstanding is pompous at best.
You are seeking to dramatize everything here and it isn't working to well for you.
Thank you for clarifying. Yes the other poster is accurate concerning the adoptive process in this Nation, and others. Just goes to further illustrate that adoption isn't a viable alternative to abortion.
And no need to get into the posters "head", she quite litterally and clearly exhibited her motives in the language that she used.
Where do you think I got the term "social martyr" from? It's from dealing with these people on a regular basis.
Thank you for clarifying. Yes the other poster is accurate concerning the adoptive process in this Nation, and others. Just goes to further illustrate that adoption isn't a viable alternative to abortion.
And no need to get into the posters "head", she quite litterally and clearly exhibited her motives in the language that she used.
Where do you think I got the term "social martyr" from? It's from dealing with these people on a regular basis.
You are very wrong...very, very wrong. When you deal in this type of work everyday come talk to me.
......"A fetus isn't a person"?...Nope, I'm afraid that just sounds too 'convenient' to me....sorry if that offends you.
Only ignorance offends me.
Firstly, understand one thing. I am, personally, pro-life. I have never been with someone who has aborted, nor do I advocate abortion to those who seek counsel from me.
I also do not support late term abortions either, even if they make up a tiny fraction of one percent of all abortions.
However, I simply refuse to base my opinions and principles on hysterical reactions and empty demogogery and propeganda forwarded by people who don't REALLY give a damn about an unborn baby and are more interested in controlling the populace.
Substantiation? The people who speak out against abortion the loudest, the most, and for the longest refuse to support contraceptives, such as condoms and the morning after pill, and push abstinence only programs on kids. And instead of attempting to increase targeted education which has PROVEN itself effective, these people spend millions (billions?) annually trying to convince people to over turn Roe vs Wade and make it illegal again.
I'm not saying EVERYONE in the anti-choice movement are like this, but by far the vast majority are.
You are very wrong...very, very wrong. When you deal in this type of work everyday come talk to me.
I do, thank you.
The wife and I are very active in the community, and while I no longer volunteer in our youngest sons Baptist church soup kitchen, thanks to his fellow parishioners, I still volunteer at a local home. This is after a decade of driving wheelchair school busses.
The wife and I are very active in the community, and while I no longer volunteer in our youngest sons Baptist church soup kitchen, thanks to his fellow parishioners, I still volunteer at a local home. This is after a decade of driving wheelchair school busses.
While that is very nice of you, that type of work doesn't qualify you to comment on adoption or an adoptive parent and their intentions or lack of.
Abortions have been occuring since the dawn of man. There are litterally hundred of herbs in the planet's farmicopia that will induce spontanious abortions. The earliest WRITTEN accounts of surgical abortions can be found among the ancient Greeks.
Abortions, of both types were also occuring in this nation all along as well. They didn't suddenly pop into existance after 1973.
I've noticed that people who tend to classify abortions as "murder" also tend to support the death penalty as well, which is, for all intents and purposed state sanctioned murder.
If this is the case, than you would also support state sanctioned abortions as well. Research the "Black Stork" program and other euthanasia programs conducted in the 1940's and 50's as well.
And puhleeze spare us the "social martyr" act with your adoption of a "special needs" child.
I like what you have to say but I disagree that people who believe that abortion is murder also support the death penalty. I believe the death penalty should exist but--like abortion--should be used sparingly. Both are "last resort" options. I don't really think of that as "supporting" it b/c I think that it should be used only in severe cases.
Much as I believe that we all should have rights--especially with regard to our bodies--those rights should be appreciated and not abused. I am pro-choice but I have also seen many people using abortion irresponsibly (i.e. as birth control), which I do not agree with. However, I am also not going to tell them how to live their lives or which decisions to make. The same is true re: the death penalty. I am very fortunate to not have had a loved one brutally murdered. I commend those who do not resort to anger and "revenge," via the death penalty. However, I also acknowledge that it is not fair to judge someone, especially when you lead a priviledged life and have no comprehension of their pain or despair.
I do not like the death penalty--or abortion--but I do acknowledge that they are appropriate in some circumstances (Charles Manson comes to mind--talk about an example that combines two issues together; it really bothers me that he--nor any other of the parties involved in that case--were not put to death.) Granted, even I acknowledge some hypocrisy in that statement--I have no idea of Manson's life, his anger, despair, etc and he killed a child, yet I am pro-choice, etc. But it still bothers me that no one got the death penalty for that.
And I reiterate that we are all complex human beings with complex opinions and thought processes, and that "supporting" or "not supporting" can be inaccurate terminology when discussing such complex issues.
While that is very nice of you, that type of work doesn't qualify you to comment on adoption or an adoptive parent and their intentions or lack of.
Certainly does when I deal with not only adoptive parents, who are required to recieve a certain amount of training as well as time with the child before they are realeased, or visiting parents who cannot care for the child at home.
I am very familiar with the type of adoptive parent who adopts merely so they can show the world "how good they are, look we adopted a special need child, aren't we soooo Christian?"
I like what you have to say but I disagree that people who believe that abortion is murder also support the death penalty. I believe the death penalty should exist but--like abortion--should be used sparingly. Both are "last resort" options. I don't really think of that as "supporting" it b/c I think that it should be used only in severe cases.
Much as I believe that we all should have rights--especially with regard to our bodies--those rights should be appreciated and not abused. I am pro-choice but I have also seen many people using abortion irresponsibly (i.e. as birth control), which I do not agree with. However, I am also not going to tell them how to live their lives or which decisions to make. The same is true re: the death penalty. I am very fortunate to not have had a loved one brutally murdered. I commend those who do not resort to anger and "revenge," via the death penalty. However, I also acknowledge that it is not fair to judge someone, especially when you lead a priviledged life and have no comprehension of their pain or despair.
I do not like the death penalty--or abortion--but I do acknowledge that they are appropriate in some circumstances (Charles Manson comes to mind--talk about an example that combines two issues together; it really bothers me that he--nor any other of the parties involved in that case--were not put to death.) Granted, even I acknowledge some hypocrisy in that statement--I have no idea of Manson's life, his anger, despair, etc and he killed a child, yet I am pro-choice, etc. But it still bothers me that no one got the death penalty for that.
And I reiterate that we are all complex human beings with complex opinions and thought processes, and that "supporting" or "not supporting" can be inaccurate terminology when discussing such complex issues.
A quite agree with most of your post, well said.
I also believe that targeted aducation, including Sex Ed, will help drive abortion numbers down. I'm sure you agree that, even should RvW be overturned (as unlikely as that is) abortions will still occur.
However, I cannot agree to the death penality for a number of reasons, chief among them our inherently flawed justice system which has developed the mentality of "innocent as long as you can afford the better lawyer". And two, I see no benefit to society in the death penalty as there is no real punishment in the death penalty IMHO. I advocate life imprisonment in supermax with no hope of parol. Let them live a good long life stewing in their own insanity.
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