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We're as FAR from being a socialist nation as is possible.
Providing health care to all people is not an exercise in Federal control of production or distribution. Paying the bill for all citizens, in a one-for-all-and all-for-one democratic matter is not socialism or re-distribution of wealth (ROW). But it is a purely constitutional mandate for "life, liberty and the pursuit .... provide for the common defense, promote the General Welfare.... "
There are people and religions who are against all war, but their taxes pay for national defense. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
Some religions don't believe in modern medicine, but their taxes pay for Medicare / Medicaid. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
There are people who don't own vehicles, but their taxes pay for building and policing roads. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
The majority of people don't use public transit, but their taxes pay for buses and subways. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
Is any candidate saying they want to see the Government take over farms, manufacturing, trucking, railroads, supermarkets or millions of small mom and pop businesses and run them? Hell no.
Do we need to balance the budget by rescinding Bush's unneeded and disastrous tax cuts. Yes, most of them.
But every time someone mentions health care, someone else spouts off that "we CANT do thaaaaaaaat, it's socialism." No it isn't. It isn't socialism, it isn't communism. Medicare and Medicaid are not socialism. But is it the MOST christian thing we can do for our fellow man. And it's the MOST American way of looking out for one another.
Lets review the constitution shall we and the intent of Promote the General Welfare. Which I will give you the writtings and thoughts of the founding fathers on the constitution. Also the reasons why if the government provides welfare or promises the people money from one group to another what will happen to the country. Also the ideas of socialism and communism are based in some of the socialist ideas we have now. Medicare, social security and welfare programs are socialist in nature. A progressive income tax is also a communist idea review the communist manifasto Karl Marx. A balanced budget would be a nice thing. PS our dollar bill is printed by the Federal Reserve System which is unconstitutional and a central bank. Only the government has the authorty to print money and gold and silver are legal tender not "bank trust". If we are to follow the constitution note with WORD PROVIDE for the common defense. Being in 130 countries with miltary bases is extreme to provide for the common defense and should be scaled back.
National Healthcare should be done via other means then the government, they already do the VETS healthcare and that sucks what do you think they will do to the rest of us.
Now on to Promote the General Welfare. You have your socialist non American idea and I have the idea of Freedom and Liberty thanks to my fellow patroits and founding fathers.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”
-Benjamin Franklin
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
“A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.”
-Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to E. Carrington, May 27, 1788
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.”
-John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787
James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, elaborated upon this limitation in a letter to James Robertson:
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”
-James Madison, 4 Annals of congress 179 (1794)
“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.”
-James Madison
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.” James Madison, “Letter to Edmund Pendleton,”
The MOST christian thing to do is to willing give of your money to charity, Government is not Charity it is force by nature to see government as a provider is the over all view and role socialist see America.
Last edited by LibertyandJusticeforAll; 07-29-2008 at 02:07 PM..
[quote=Mike from back east;4648309]Delusianne, thanks for at least trying to get people on the same sheet of music regards WHAT is socialism. Heres a decent example:
From Wikipedia: "Socialism refers to any of various economic and political concepts of state or collective public ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services...."
The entry runs on at great length, but the GIST of socialism is PUBLIC ownership of the MEANS of production and distribution.
Are the Feds running GM, Ford, GE, Microsoft?
Are the Feds delivering things to your door in shiny brown trucks?
Does your paycheck say Federal Farm Cooperative Number 11349, or Federal Bar and Grill?
I think not.
We're as FAR from being a socialist nation as is possible.
Providing health care to all people is not an exercise in Federal control of production or distribution.
Yes,, universal health care is 100% socialism,, the government is giving or providing health care in other words, the means of production is by the government.
Paying the bill for all citizens, in a one-for-all-and all-for-one democratic matter is not socialism or re-distribution of wealth (ROW).
HOw can you say that,, if is not capitalism then is socialism... re-distribution of wealth is one of the biggest step toward socialism...
Socialism also means everybody makes more or less the same money,, by taking away from the rich and giving it to the poor...
But it is a purely constitutional mandate for "life, liberty and the pursuit .... provide for the common defense, promote the General Welfare.... "
The constitution doesnt mandate this,, you have life, you have liberty, the government doesnt provide happiness.. In no way it promotes general welfare only general liberty... where are you getting this???
There are people and religions who are against all war, but their taxes pay for national defense. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
NO,, all countries need national defense...
Some religions don't believe in modern medicine, but their taxes pay for Medicare / Medicaid. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
Medicare is fair,, you are paying your own medicare... Medicaid is another story...
There are people who don't own vehicles, but their taxes pay for building and policing roads. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
A lot of roads and others are also paid by tolls, you only pay tolls if you drive...
The majority of people don't use public transit, but their taxes pay for buses and subways. Is that an "unfair" ROW? No.
Public transportation usually pays for itself.. public trans portation is not free...
Is any candidate saying they want to see the Government take over farms, manufacturing, trucking, railroads, supermarkets or millions of small mom and pop businesses and run them? Hell no.
No,, you want that 1% of the population hard working people pay for others that maybe work or maybe dont but are poor....
Do we need to balance the budget by rescinding Bush's unneeded and disastrous tax cuts. Yes, most of them.
But every time someone mentions health care, someone else spouts off that "we CANT do thaaaaaaaat, it's socialism."
We cant pay for it anyway...
No it isn't. It isn't socialism, it isn't communism.
ok,,UNIVERSAL"SOCIALIST" health care is not socialism,,, brilliant!!!
Medicare and Medicaid are not socialism.
Medicare, medicaid, food coupons, WIC, projects, section 8,, all are socialist.
But is it the MOST christian thing we can do for our fellow man. And it's the MOST American way of looking out for one another.
ok... if you say so...
oh and what you didnt read..
Socialism refers to any of various economic and political concepts of state or collective public ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services...."
Anything that comes from the government is socialism
I love how the government privatizes the profits of these huge banks and yet puts the debt on the backs of the American people. Now if we can do this for the banks, why can't we help the American people???
That's the worst form of 'socialism' that I can think of....the people's money going out the door by the trainload to help out all those "smart" people on Wall Street, et al. Rob the poor to pay the rich. Now THAT is Re-Distribution of Wealth - Capitalist Style!
Last edited by Mike from back east; 07-29-2008 at 04:52 PM..
Barak has openly touted his redistribution of wealth plans. He wants to raise taxes on all Americans, but substantially on the wealthy, and redistribute part of it to the poor. It’s not enough that the “rich†(those making more than $250,000 per year) are a relatively small group currently paying the vast majority of all taxes.
A redistribution of the wealth is an absolute must in order for the US to survive much beyond 2020.
Such a redistribution can be accomplished by restructuring the tax tables so that rather than taking from one group to give to the other, we simply don't take, period.
The best way to do that is make the first $100,000 of income non-taxable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAZER PROPHET
To try and set forth a shift in our economy to redirect and punish those that produce and reward those that don’t seems very dangerous- for both classes.
Ideally, the distribution of wealth should take the shape of an equilateral triangle.
In the US the top 20% control 80% of the wealth in the US. It would be absurd to suggest that they earned that wealth fairly. They obtained it through trickery and deceit, by creating special interest groups to lobby for special tax breaks at the local, state and federal level, to reduce competition through the creation of environmental and other restrictive compliance laws at the local, state and federal level that bar new entries and drive others out, just to name a few of their tactics.
I will be the first to lay blame to idiot Americans who willingly give away what little wealth they have, but forcing Americans into acting responsibly financially can be accomplished by extending Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection to your average American.
The US economy runs on consumer spending, which is driven almost entirely by the amount of disposable income spent by the 80% who have no wealth won't have any disposable income if Cost Inflation continues to run rampant and they're burdened by taxes.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,411,082 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
Yes it was found out shortly after. You would do good to learn how that disease works. It's horrible.
I LIVED with it for years when it afflicted a loved one so you can take your self-righteousness and ........................
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
You can disagree with the man all you like...but show some respect from a humane standpoint Moderator cut: name calling, stay on topic please.
Ooooooh!, I forgot the old uptighty-righty love affair with the double standard, it's OK to hide things for some people. On a human level I have the utmost sysmpathy for the Reagan family to have suffered thru this, but as a leader he let the country down by hiding this condition if it was indeed there. And if it was a cover-up it DOES NOT excuse selling weapons to an enemy and then denying or forgetting it.
Moderator cut: name calling, stay on topic please
Last edited by Kristynwy; 07-30-2008 at 11:08 AM..
A redistribution of the wealth is an absolute must in order for the US to survive much beyond 2020.
NO it is not..... it will be the end of us... capitalism moves our economi,, people wanting to be rich creates private companies.
Such a redistribution can be accomplished by restructuring the tax tables so that rather than taking from one group to give to the other, we simply don't take, period.
The best way to do that is make the first $100,000 of income non-taxable.
So everybody that makes more then 100,000 are taxed,, great.. good option... how is this not one group giving it to another group,, this is worst.. no body under 100k pays taxes but gets everything free???
Ideally, the distribution of wealth should take the shape of an equilateral triangle.
???
In the US the top 20% control 80% of the wealth in the US. It would be absurd to suggest that they earned that wealth fairly.
Yes,, they earned it fairly,,,
They obtained it through trickery and deceit, by creating special interest groups to lobby for special tax breaks at the local, state and federal level, to reduce competition through the creation of environmental and other restrictive compliance laws at the local, state and federal level that bar new entries and drive others out, just to name a few of their tactics.
Oh my God,,,, and what about Doctors Lawyers,, small companies(but makes money), CPA with private firms.. I dont see them cheating the sistem,, they went to school for a better life.. something the poor should have think about...In your unreal worlds this 20% are mafia dudes with lobby dudes controlling everything,, hey I am in that 20% actually I am even higher,, and I dont have any lobby friends or special interest groups...
I will be the first to lay blame to idiot Americans who willingly give away what little wealth they have, but forcing Americans into acting responsibly financially can be accomplished by extending Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection to your average American.
We shouldnt extend chapter 11,, and what have the federal government pay for everybody mistake... if you dont know how to control your own money, dont take credit...
The US economy runs on consumer spending, which is driven almost entirely by the amount of disposable income spent by the 80% who have no wealth won't have any disposable income if Cost Inflation continues to run rampant and they're burdened by taxes.
No, actually is the top 20% that spends more... and move the economy,, not the 80% dont dont have money to spend...
What a laugher! This is akin to claiming that "using the U.S. military to accomplish regime change in a Middle Eastern state is highly inefficient"!
The point you must remember is: look who's in charge in the White House!
The charity should come from the local community, churches, people.
I'm a humanitarian BECAUSE I trust people more than government. You should try it.
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