Dayton Ohio: Does it still suck there? (Cincinnati, Kent: school districts, living)

[SmartGXL]

Originally Posted by Billy from Dayton

^ Oakbrook Center (did you mean?) didn't have a roof as far back as the early 90's and I don't believe it ever had one. Definitely the most upper-scale mall in the burbs when I lived there. Ironically, River Oaks in Calumet City (my old stomping grounds) was originally an outdoor mall that looked very much like an old version of The Greene (again minus the upstairs apartments) until they finally decided in the mid 90's that an outdoor mall doesn't make sense in the Chicago climate and they spent millions on retrofitting it with a roof to look more like a traditional mall... before the term "lifestyle mall" had been born, of course.

Oh wait, this post is about Dayton still sucking or something...

Yes, and there is one in the north burbs that did rip the roof off, so these things do change from time to time.

And - the popularity of these urban, walkable "lifestyle centers" (as well as the resurgence of popularity of older urban neighborhoods in places like NYC, Chicago, San Fran etc) shows that Americans do want urban walkable environments. it is just a matter of building them. or, in Dayton's case, you need to build it downtown or make the right type of investment downtown to bring people there. The problem is that it has to happen organically and it might not be possible to replicate that anymore for downtown Dayton...and this is why, Dayton currently "sucks", although I wish it would improve.

I did wonder if it would be possible to rename dayton...dayton is such a crappy name for a city, so boring...

[Both-Sides-Of-Ampersand]

Looks cleaner but yeah- still sucks.
The museums... the cooperate buildings... it doesn't totally suck but yes.
It just isn't awesome. You know?

[Both-Sides-Of-Ampersand]

Originally Posted by Daytonnatian

Please explain to me how you would do this.......

Stop trolling. If you want, FML is a good place to go

Is this person trolling... if all they're doing is telling the truth? I don't see it.

[Daytonnatian]

Originally Posted by Both-Sides-Of-Ampersand

Looks cleaner but yeah- still sucks.
The museums... the cooperate buildings... it doesn't totally suck but yes.
It just isn't awesome. You know?

I don't get what you're saying. Please enlighten me.....

[tightline]

Yes, it still sucks, and thats a shame. I visit other nearby cities, and wonder , why cant dayton be like this, downtown indy is safe, clean, lots of shopping and great places to eat, horse drawn buggies to ride in, and they are building condos all over the place. My family and i go there 3 or 4 times a year to walk around, shop, eat,etc its like a mini new york city on the weekends, sidewalks can become crowded at times. One thing you will notice right away is the police presence, they are on foot,bicycle, horseback,motorcycles. Maybe Dayton is just too big to be a small town, and not big enough to be a real city.

[Ohioan58]

Originally Posted by tightline

Maybe Dayton is just too big to be a small town, and not big enough to be a real city.

Ding ding ding ding

We have a winner!

[Billy from Dayton]

Originally Posted by tightline

...Maybe Dayton is just too big to be a small town, and not big enough to be a real city.

Yes I'll second that ding ding... that sums up much of the problem with Dayton. The question is - are there examples of cities the size of Dayton (with similar-sized metro regions as well) that are very successful? What are the things they're doing right? Or are the differences so complex that it just isn't that simple to articulate...

[Ohioan58]

Originally Posted by Billy from Dayton

The question is - are there examples of cities the size of Dayton (with similar-sized metro regions as well) that are very successful? What are the things they're doing right? Or are the differences so complex that it just isn't that simple to articulate...

I have a pet theory on this. Like certain body parts, it stinks and everyone has one too.

Anyway, I think a medium sized city like Dayton has a set of "perfect storm" challenges. Middletown and Springfield exemplify the problem even more. All three share the following in common:

- Due to its smaller size, Dayton et al doesn't have a sufficient amount of historical momentum due to size or historicity to keep going just on its name. IE, if Detroit, Cleveland or Pittsburgh disappeared off the face of the map, most of the US would be distressed because there would be an abundance of personal ties-back to the place to cause psychic harm. Dayton simply isn't large enough to have a large enough mind share of good will outside the immediate area to ride out a big downturn. So Dayton, et al is invisible in terms of national mind share.

- Due to its larger size (above a village or true small town), a medium sized city can accumulate some really nasty social, economic dislocation, and criminal issues. From crack slums and districts laden with hookers to a permanent underclass that is multigenerationally on welfare.

- Lack of obvious historicity, like a Civil War or Revolutionary War battlefield. This is owing to our bland, flat, port-less inland location that was established after the first wave of early settlement of the US and our distance from the Mason Dixon line. Dayton has a few things that have niche or geek attraction, and I am even thinking of things like the "Talbot Labs" where some Manhattan Project research was conducted in Oakwood during WWII. But we don't have obvious historicity. Urban renewal and freeway construction of downtown and the inner east side removed most of Dayton's core old city areas. We have just enough historical elements like the old Hungarian section of North Dayton to be tantalizing to people from the area, but not enough to constitute an interesting destination.

- Due to Dayton's relatively small size we have limited "economic momentum." A few companies pull out and the local economy is screwed. We do not have the ability to ride out momentary downturns gracefully like a Pittsburgh or Cleveland could.

Plus some unfortunately uniquely Dayton things:

- A certain type of local denial and insularity that you find in smaller cities. Older and middle aged people here have insisted on whistling in the dark well into the 1990s. Dayton is somewhat progressive in some ways, but unfortunately burns most of its progressive energy on the ancient east side vs west side, east side vs everyone else class division garbage rather than on progressivism of ideas, social norms, etc. There's kind of an "underclass aristocracy" mentality around Dayton - lots of people here who choose to defiantly suck rather than improve themselves. Almost all briars and some blacks in the area in particular cling to their own respective peer group affiliation.

- Dayton is a mean city to grow up in and live in, in general. People here are just plain mean. At "best" people here are naturally passive aggressive. You even see it in the way drivers almost never give way to pedestrians here. People in most other cities around the US are very neutral by comparison.

[jstn]

Originally Posted by Billy from Dayton

Yes I'll second that ding ding... that sums up much of the problem with Dayton. The question is - are there examples of cities the size of Dayton (with similar-sized metro regions as well) that are very successful? What are the things they're doing right? Or are the differences so complex that it just isn't that simple to articulate...

Greenville, SC : https://www.city-data.com/forum/green...enjoyment.html

This might be in the ballpark as to what a city the size as Dayton could be. Not too long ago Greenville was much like Dayton.

[JefferyT]

Yes I'll second that ding ding... that sums up much of the problem with Dayton. The question is - are there examples of cities the size of Dayton (with similar-sized metro regions as well) that are very successful? What are the things they're doing right? Or are the differences so complex that it just isn't that simple to articulate...

Grand Rapids. Roughly equivilant regional economies (Gross Metropolitan Product) and populations, but GR appears to have a better downtown. This place is surfacing more and more as a "good example".