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Again, they would open these stores even in Bridgeport city limits if there were a top mall operator planning a high-end complex. They don't care about city limits, which are irrelevent to where people shop.
If you believe that I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Once again I ask the posters in this thread. There used to be a mall in New Haven. Why do you think it is not there anymore?
If there was a mall say in the vicinity of where Stew Leonard's is in Norwalk that would be a horse of a different color. It is not the fact that there is going to be a mall in Norwalk.....it is the site/location of the mall compared to the location of the mall in Stamford.
If my Trumbull mall was 2 miles south (or more) into Bridgeport on Main Street I would never go there. And I am not talking all the way downtown Bridgeport. I am saying if my Trumbull mall was only 2 miles more south down Main Street I and most of my neighbors would not go there.
If the Stamford mall was on Stillwater Avenue or say Fairfield Avenue near Stillwater Avenue (or in the surrounding streets/area) I would have never gone there.
If the mall is located in South Norwalk, were the people with the lowest incomes live, who do you think will primarily be in the mall in that location? It does not matter whether they cater to lower income individuals or not, they will still be in the mall.
Let me give you a few antidotes. And yes, I AM specifically talking about the income level of the people who live in and around the 2 malls we are comparing.
*I have a friend that lives in Easton who is from a upper income family. She lives closer to the Trumbull mall than me. She rarely goes to the Trumbull mall. When I asked her why don't you go to the Trumbull mall she said to me "no thanks, I go shopping in Fairfield and Westport".
*I have another friend that lives in the southern section of New Canaan. She thumbs her nose at the Stamford Mall and does most of her shopping in New Canaan and the northern part of Stamford (High Ride Road) where people have higher incomes more in line with her.
*My mother lived in a North Carolina town for about 6 years. There was a mall in the poor section of town but it had a lot of nice stores. The wealthier people in the town did not go to the mall. This town built another mall in the wealthier section of town.
In my experience wealthy people don't want to patronize stores/malls in lower income areas.
I myself am not rich. I go down to Norwalk a few times a week for work. I stop in Westport on the way home to do some shopping. If a mall is going into South Norwalk in the midst of lower income neighborhoods even I will by pass it and continue to go shopping in. Westport.
Do you even know exactly where this mall is going to be located?? Directly on West Avenue, where a large chunk of the area is being built up. Additionally, while there lower income are in SoNo, it is the most south part of SoNo. Washington and up to the Waypointe District (and soon to be further, as they continue to revitalize downtown) are pretty darn safe and have a lot of higher income apartments and people now. I run all over Norwalk and then only place down there I feel unsafe is directly behind the train station--so I simply take a friend when I run there.
Those statements are ridiculous. I grew up between Darien and Monroe, still frequent Darien, Greenwich, New Canaan for shoppping, etc and my family is now down in Jupiter area. While I too grew up shopping in Westport and Fairfield, I also went to the Trumbull Mall and "lower income spots," because my mother raised me with a)people are people, no one is better than anyone else and b)to be smart about things when you go places. My cousins have all been raised the same way, and we are all doing quite well.
I'm excited to have Bloomies and Nordstrom (and Nordstrom Rack!) right here.
If you believe that I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Once again I ask the posters in this thread. There used to be a mall in New Haven. Why do you think it is not there anymore?
If there was a mall say in the vicinity of where Stew Leonard's is in Norwalk that would be a horse of a different color. It is not the fact that there is going to be a mall in Norwalk.....it is the site/location of the mall compared to the location of the mall in Stamford.
If my Trumbull mall was 2 miles south (or more) into Bridgeport on Main Street I would never go there. And I am not talking all the way downtown Bridgeport. I am saying if my Trumbull mall was only 2 miles more south down Main Street I and most of my neighbors would not go there.
If the Stamford mall was on Stillwater Avenue or say Fairfield Avenue near Stillwater Avenue (or in the surrounding streets/area) I would have never gone there.
I can answer your question on the New Haven mall and it is not entirely what you seem to be implying. The Chapel Square Mall was opened in 1967. Unlike most malls it did not have anchor stores at each end but rather was connected to already existing independently owned department stores (Macy's and Edward Malley & Co.). The department stores were on different blocks than the mall itself and were connected to it by second floor skywalks over city streets. Malley's was not directly connected to the mall. It was connected to Macy's which was connected to the mall. And parking for the mall was at the Temple Street Garage which was basically behind Macy's and Malley's and not connected to the mall. This layout worked against the mall's success. There was little to no foot traffic through the mall since the parking and the anchors were not really in the mall. Also, the mall had major competition from suburban malls like the Connecticut Post in Milford and Meriden Square which both offered comparable anchors and free parking.
In 1982, Edward Malley closed and the building sat vacant for years. In 1984 the mall was bought by a highly successful mall owner, Rouse, who renovated it and brought in a high end home furnishings store, Conran's. The mall then started doing well again but then Macy's went bankrupt in 1993 and Conran's went out of business so the mall fell back into hard times. It was bought by another developer in 2002 who has converted it to luxury apartments and ground level retail space. The Macy's and Malley's sites are now the site of Gateway Community College. Jay
Do you even know exactly where this mall is going to be located?? Directly on West Avenue, where a large chunk of the area is being built up. Additionally, while there lower income are in SoNo, it is the most south part of SoNo. Washington and up to the Waypointe District (and soon to be further, as they continue to revitalize downtown) are pretty darn safe and have a lot of higher income apartments and people now. I run all over Norwalk and then only place down there I feel unsafe is directly behind the train station--so I simply take a friend when I run there.
Those statements are ridiculous. I grew up between Darien and Monroe, still frequent Darien, Greenwich, New Canaan for shoppping, etc and my family is now down in Jupiter area. While I too grew up shopping in Westport and Fairfield, I also went to the Trumbull Mall and "lower income spots," because my mother raised me with a)people are people, no one is better than anyone else and b)to be smart about things when you go places. My cousins have all been raised the same way, and we are all doing quite well.
I'm excited to have Bloomies and Nordstrom (and Nordstrom Rack!) right here.
Going by New Haven side on train station down the street is rundown but it tiny section of Norwalk that is. Rents going for $1200-$1400 in that area I am surprise it that high although it dumpy.
If you believe that I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Yes, I do truly believe that, as I'm in the commercial real estate industry, and there are basically 1,000 real-world examples supporting my position and 0 real-world examples supporting your position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTartist
Once again I ask the posters in this thread. There used to be a mall in New Haven. Why do you think it is not there anymore?
Because it was an outdated, crappy, anchorless multilevel urban mall from the 1970's. Those types of vertical/skywalk-oriented malls in the U.S. have basically a 100% failure rate. Even in Manhattan, best retail market on the planet, those malls all failed. Every last one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTartist
If there was a mall say in the vicinity of where Stew Leonard's is in Norwalk that would be a horse of a different color.
No, actually it would make no difference whatsoever.
I have worked with retailers on site location planning. I suspect you haven't. Retailers want 1. Accessible location (road/transit access), 2. Reliable operator/manager 3. Acceptable rent and lease terms and 4. (and most important, by far) Other stores similar to them.
They don't care about the particulars of South Norwalk vs East Norwalk vs. North Norwalk. They would laugh at your supposition. They don't give a damn. They're courting a REGIONAL market; the specific location is meaningless as long as accessible to a desirable radius of shoppers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTartist
If my Trumbull mall was 2 miles south (or more) into Bridgeport on Main Street I would never go there.
That's great. And my Aunt Mary will only shop in a pink tutu.
Your anecdotes are irrelevant. Retailers don't care about your odd shopper quirks. Just because you will only buy clothes in one particular area and not another doesn't mean that this is normal shopper behavior.
And it's irrelevent anyways, because the only areas where you could build such a huge urban mall are already areas that are unacceptable to you, so if you were in charge there would be no shopping in CT. Suburban areas no longer allow megamalls.
And it's also silly in that the specific location where this mall is going up is one of the most desirable in SW CT. They're building thousands of market rate apartments in the immediate area. The only housing project in vicinity is over a mile away and being demolished anyways. Retail rents on Washington in SoNo are already higher than in Westport. In CT only Greenwich Ave. has higher retail rents than Washington.
Going by New Haven side on train station down the street is rundown but it tiny section of Norwalk that is. Rents going for $1200-$1400 in that area I am surprise it that high although it dumpy.
That's actually not even where I am talking about--I feel fine running over there. There's a really shady spot literally behind the station--different roads, etc.
But yea, 1200 is one of the lower rents I've seen in Norwalk. My building starts around 1800 for a tiny (to me, 700-ish sq ft) one bedroom, to like 8K for the penthouses. Different areas, though.
They don't care about the particulars of South Norwalk vs East Norwalk vs. North Norwalk. They would laugh at your supposition. They don't give a damn. .
???????
But middle class and wealthier woman who do all the shopping at middle class and high end stores do give a damn.
I have never heard of a real estate agent who disregards the old "location, location, location".
If it is no big deal why do you think the Trumbull mall is sited in TRUMBULL off the Parkway and not in downtown Bridgeport near the 95/25 junction where there is more traffic? The people who sited the Trumbull Mall where no dummies when they picked that location to build up rather in downtown Bridgeport.
A year after the Norwalk mall is built and the "bloom is off the rose" I am going to go in there and then revisit this topic.
BTW, do you realize that Stamford's population doubles everyday because of WEALTHIER people coming mostly to the downtown financial area (where the mall is) to work. That also give the mall a greater sense of safety when they are going into the mall to eat and do quick shopping.
But middle class and wealthier woman who do all the shopping at middle class and high end stores do give a damn.
I have never heard of a real estate agent who disregards the old "location, location, location".
If it is no big deal why do you think the Trumbull mall is sited in TRUMBULL off the Parkway and not in downtown Bridgeport near the 95/25 junction where there is more traffic? The people who sited the Trumbull Mall where no dummies when they picked that location to build up rather in downtown Bridgeport.
A year after the Norwalk mall is built and the "bloom is off the rose" I am going to go in there and then revisit this topic.
BTW, do you realize that Stamford's population doubles everyday because of WEALTHIER people coming mostly to the downtown financial area (where the mall is) to work. That also give the mall a greater sense of safety when they are going into the mall to eat and do quick shopping.
I fall into your upper middle class/wealthier woman category and I still disagree. The Stamford Mall does NOT have the same amount or quality of stores (Nordstrom and Bloomies--the Saks Off Fifth is usually way too picked over) that the new mall will have.
Smart people, with money to spend, will go where the good shopping is. I can't even tell you how many people in my circles are psyched for this.
I fall into your upper middle class/wealthier woman category and I still disagree. The Stamford Mall does NOT have the same amount or quality of stores (Nordstrom and Bloomies--the Saks Off Fifth is usually way too picked over) that the new mall will have.
Smart people, with money to spend, will go where the good shopping is. I can't even tell you how many people in my circles are psyched for this.
I am sure that people who live in Norwalk are psyched.
Smart people with money will go to where good shopping is if there is SAFETY. Why do you think the mall in New Haven closed but the big outlets (which are essentially malls) are thriving in Clinton and Westbrook.
Only time will tell who will be predominately in the Norwalk mall and not just in the anchor stores. That is why I will wait a year and then revisit this.
I hope I am wrong because I would like a safe close alternative to the Trumbull mall.
Trumbull was built at a time when the property rates were well below Birdgeport's (lower price/acre, much lower mill) and would allow for a encompassing car lot which was all the rage. The mall literally abuts the City line, and was basically the premier shopping centre for eastern Fairfield County until Milford got built up more. The enclosed mall system that was so popular in the 1970's is on the wane, and brick and mortar property managers are looking for ways to weave in their properties to the surrounding area for more an overall shopping experience instead of the quick in and out (where customers are less likely to peruse and impulse buy).
As for the property in question, that 95/7 lot is absolutely prime space. From the new developments in both directions, to access to West Ave, to fairly easy on/off to the highway it's basically a retailers dream. Add in the demos of the area, the fact CT as a whole is fairly under-retailed, and that our existing shopping areas are by and large doing well bucking national trends it's really no wonder the developer is looking to build. I would've preferred additional office space (sorely needed in Fairfield County), residential (sorely needed), and maybe an internal plaza but this project is much better than letting prime real estate sit fallow for nothing.
As for your concerns for safety... what? You must really not know that area in the least.
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