Western States Megadrought intensifies - predictions for bad Fire Season and severe water shortages for Colorado (Denver: gated, income)

[Therblig]

Unless I'm missing something, the Colorado River has very little to do with water in Colorado... not to dismiss the situation (my brother is an internationally known climate scientist, and I've been observing this situation for decades as a native North Californian) but in general the southwest's dire problems are not the Front Range's.

[xeric]

Originally Posted by Therblig

Unless I'm missing something, the Colorado River has very little to do with water in Colorado... not to dismiss the situation (my brother is an internationally known climate scientist, and I've been observing this situation for decades as a native North Californian) but in general the southwest's dire problems are not the Front Range's.

Except that 50% of the Front Range water supply comes from the Colorado River basin and the Western Slope is completely within that basin. I don’t want to make Colorado all about the Front Range (even though people on this side of the mountains do that all the time) but here are some links about Colorado River water and the Eastern Slope.

https://www.cpr.org/2021/06/04/weste...-water-supply/
https://www.watereducationcolorado.o...ies-and-farms/

[Melanzana92]

Dillon Reservoir and Williams Fork Reservoir are two reservoirs which are geographically located on the Western Slope/drain into the Colorado River that belong to Denver.

Green Mountain Reservoir, below Dillon Reservoir, looks like it belongs to Northern Water which is based in Berthoud.

So yeah, the Front Range certainly depends on Western Slope water as well.

[Therblig]

Originally Posted by Melanzana92

So yeah, the Front Range certainly depends on Western Slope water as well.

I didn't say or mean it was a non-issue. But 50% of a region's water from the CRB is not the nearly 100% that many regions to the southwest get from it.

Let's face it, the SW quarter of the US is not suited to anything but the most sparse habitation and agriculture, and has been used for both on a large scale only by importing water to do so — nearly all the water that was available. Now there's less — heading to, effectively, zero — water to import. This is only going to be a "temporary" situation measured, most likely, in centuries.

Time to rethink it all, especially the giant drainhole of Southern California.

Not that anyplace much south of Canada is going to have an easy time of it, but it's time to stop shipping all water from the north half of the country to this essentially uninhabitable corner.

[xeric]

Originally Posted by Therblig

I didn't say or mean it was a non-issue. But 50% of a region's water from the CRB is not the nearly 100% that many regions to the southwest get from it.

Let's face it, the SW quarter of the US is not suited to anything but the most sparse habitation and agriculture, and has been used for both on a large scale only by importing water to do so — nearly all the water that was available. Now there's less — heading to, effectively, zero — water to import. This is only going to be a "temporary" situation measured, most likely, in centuries.

Time to rethink it all, especially the giant drainhole of Southern California.

Not that anyplace much south of Canada is going to have an easy time of it, but it's time to stop shipping all water from the north half of the country to this essentially uninhabitable corner.

I question whether northeastern Colorado or northern California are any more habitable by your definition. They also have to pipe water from places where people don’t live to support a population that is arguably too large for what the regions can support. If you lived in a modestly populated and well-watered area, your argument might hold more weight. On the other hand northern areas with short growing seasons rely on subtropical areas for winter crops (many of which use irrigation) so there’s that as well. Maybe we should all lie in the wet tropics, but even then there are other environmental issues and carrying capacity limits.

[Therblig]

Originally Posted by xeric

I question whether northeastern Colorado or northern California are any more habitable by your definition. They also have to pipe water from places where people don’t live to support a population that is arguably too large for what the regions can support.

Northern California doesn't take water from anywhere but its own region; I don't regard, say, capturing water in the Sierra and piping it to Sacramento and SF as anywhere near the same thing as feeding Western Slope water to LA, or even Phoenix. (Not to mention the water LA is increasingly "stealing" from Mexico, at the cost of regions becoming arid there. But there's a 1944 treaty, you see.)

North California is by far a net water exporter... except that it no longer has much surplus to export.

Yes, it would be a lovely green idea for only as many people to live in any one place as that place can natively support. Now put away your lollipop and let's take reality seriously.

[xeric]

Originally Posted by Therblig

Northern California doesn't take water from anywhere but its own region; I don't regard, say, capturing water in the Sierra and piping it to Sacramento and SF as anywhere near the same thing as feeding Western Slope water to LA, or even Phoenix. (Not to mention the water LA is increasingly "stealing" from Mexico, at the cost of regions becoming arid there. But there's a 1944 treaty, you see.)

North California is by far a net water exporter... except that it no longer has much surplus to export.

Yes, it would be a lovely green idea for only as many people to live in any one place as that place can natively support. Now put away your lollipop and let's take reality seriously.

Those mountain communities in the Sierras don’t like you damming their streams and taking their water anymore then the western slopes likes the Denver metroplex taking their water. The point is that the San Francisco metro does not have enough surface or ground water to support its own population so it has to move it from somewhere else. You seem to object to the fact that LA has to move the water farther but it’s really the same thing. You probably should also google the doctrine of prior appropriation (the basis of all western law). Being next to a water source does not equate to having the first right of use - if so, the Bay Area cities would never have grown to their current size.

And if you want everyone to live in places that are the least likely to have environmental stressors, you have to widen your definition beyond drought. There’s flooding, earthquakes, blizzards, crop-killing early and late frosts, tornados, hurricanes, wildfires, hail, and the list goes on.

You sir, live in a glass house.

[Therblig]

Originally Posted by xeric

You sir, live in a glass house.

No, I, sir, grew up in North California battling the Peripheral Canal and understand the issues from the perspective of a resident of a water-producing region. Marc Reisner was a close acquaintance for a number of years.

Understand that SF and the Bay Area are not "North California," something few this side of the Sierra grasp.

[xeric]

Originally Posted by Therblig

No, I, sir, grew up in North California battling the Peripheral Canal and understand the issues from the perspective of a resident of a water-producing region. Marc Reisner was a close acquaintance for a number of years.

Understand that SF and the Bay Area are not "North California," something few this side of the Sierra grasp.

Of course, we all want to set ourselves above the hordes. But I suspect the state of Jefferson would take more in Federal funding then it would ever give back.

[Mike from back east]

NOAA has called this a La Niña year which means a number of things but notably that "worsening drought conditions in the Southwest through the winter and potentially elevating the fire risk through the fall."

Story on WaPo.


Excerpt: "During La Niña winters, high pressure near the Aleutian chain shoves the polar jet stream north over Alaska, maintaining an active storm track there. The Last Frontier often ends up cooler than average. The confluence of the polar and Pacific jet streams, as shown in the image above, helps drag some of that cold air across the Pacific Northwest and adjacent parts of the northern Plains. That keeps the northern United States anomalously wet, while the South is left largely warm and dry. This is bad news for California and other parts of the Southwest, which are enduring a historic drought. The persistence of warm, dry conditions would cause the drought to worsen and potentially prolong the fire season."